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Review and Measurements of Benchmark AHB2 Amp

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amirm

amirm

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Of course, there are differences in soundstaging. The Gungnir for example has a much deeper soundstage on my system than the e38. Schiit, rightly or not, attributes that to the closed form reconstruction filter.
Nope. I have an E32 and have tested and listened to a bunch of Schiit DACs. Nothing is different about them with respect to soundstage. That impression comes from the music, your room, speakers, etc. Not your DAC.

Anyway, this is a thread about Benchmark AHB2. Please keep your comments limited to this product.
 

March Audio

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Exactly what I heard, and the effect was so pronounced anyone could have heard it. And I hadn't read this at the time I listened, so there's a pretty good parity check here -- good enough for me to lose interest in whether the DAC's differ, and become curious about why they do.

But if you wanted to eliminate any doubt, I agree that a blind test would be the way to go.

By the way, you took exception to Kal's impressions of the AHB2 and Parasound. As it happened, I *did* do a blind, level matched comparison between them (Parasound A21 -- Kal used an A31, which is similar) a couple of years ago when I bought my AHB2, and heard the same differences he did. And John Siau has ABX'd crossover distortion at very low levels; the Parasounds are high bias, but they'll still go into Class B above 10 watts into 8 ohms (John Curl says that you can improve their sound by biasing them until the heatsinks get hot!)

By the way, I don't think your experience with audiophiles is representative of what an experienced listener can hear, using the right program material and revealing loudspeakers.

and yet under controlled conditions myself and 20 others couldnt.

I didnt take exception to Kals impression in the sense that phrase implies, I just have no understanding of the descriptors he used. Secondly the same problem applies WRT sighted listening.

You have no basis to say my experience with those audiophiles was unrepresentative. It is in fact entirely representative of every time I introduce controls to listening assessments with anyone. They can hear things when they can see the same equipment that they dont when they cant cant see it or don't know which component is playing.
 
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RayDunzl

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pozz

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But then the question becomes which is accurate. Unless we're talking something blatantly euphonic like high second harmonic distortion I don't always find it easy to tell. And sometimes you're just shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic, e.g., reconstruction filters can sound different but technically, they're all wrong in different ways -- this one has preringning, that one doesn't but is minimum rather than linear phase, etc.
This will be a little bit off topic given where you're coming from but it's worth thinking about.

In terms of pre/post ringing for reconstruction filters, as far as I know the effect is measured in single-digit millisecond periods in modern equipment. I don't think it stacks up against aliasing (what reconstruction filters are meant to combat) as the real issue.

However, ringing is much grosser and much more perceptible in other areas. Let's start big, with time/amplitude differences for concert soundsystems.

In live sound reinforcement, getting consistent sound is very difficult. A loose piece of evidence is concert hall ticket pricing, which is somewhat linked to acoustic assessments of sound quality (clarity, evenness, mix of direct vs. reverberant sound) in different seats. Apart of the architecture of the venue and its acoustic effects, the zone of coverage produced by each speaker within an array has to be adjusted to ensure consistency. Consider that amplitude differences are not only due to additive effects of multiple speakers directed to the same area, but also, because of their varying positions and many possible locations of listeners, frequency-dependent relative phase. Phase adjustments (i.e., small timing adjustments) become as important as EQ in this case to achieve even response.

This acoustic situation reoccurs in a similar way electronically in the studio. During mixing, every component in the chain affects the signal's phase and amplitude cumulatively. The complication here is that bandwidths, slopes and phase of each are different, and trying to boost/attenuate in one place may result in screwy changes you don't expect elsewhere in the spectrum. Say you want to boost a particular track within a given passage using EQ—the changes to phase around the target frequency will not be completely predictable, such that there might be a small dip around the edges of the band when mixed with other material despite the boost of everything else in the middle. Trying to EQ those dips once you hear them can easily become a nightmare given that rerouting that track to another piece of gear will introduce another set of shifts corresponding to additional squiggles in the amplitude response. On top of that you're doing this for multiple tracks, many of which are likely to inhabit the same frequency range. It's also not uncommon for engineers to boost "empty space" in the highs because the Q will subtly adjust the lower registers. This behaviour of equalizers and other components is also called ringing, i.e., the differences in settling time that occur when the signal is routed through the circuit. This type of ringing is very audible and is measured over much longer periods.

I didn't once mention microphones or recording because this has nothing to do with that. There is no single reference point for accuracy. There are system capabilities and responses, all of which are to some degree measurable, but which oftentimes can't be measured because of the impracticality of doing so during a session. Knowing all of this though, and keeping that entire complex chain of effects in mind, is what makes a good engineer.

By extension, good, well-designed gear will have predictable or at least well-described responses, and will not take advantage of psychoacoustic effects like masking if that masking serves a specifically euphonic purpose which can't be relied on once the mix leaves the session and is heard on different systems. The Benchmark amp will have the least effect on that entire electronic chain of events I described above when you're monitoring, and will therefore be the most accurate.
 

pozz

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And sometimes you're just shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic, e.g., reconstruction filters can sound different but technically, they're all wrong in different ways -- this one has preringning, that one doesn't but is minimum rather than linear phase, etc.
By the way—this is a hilarious way of describing that effort.
 

josh358

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You mean this, VERY simple/modest FR filter schiit calls its "mega combo burrito" filter...?
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...eview-battle-of-schiit-audio-dacs.5487/page-4



Ahh yes, the ultimate reverse UNO card. My system is more revealing.
So you're saying that open baffle ribbon speakers are no more revealing than the typical enclosed dynamic?

If you believe that, you either have limited listening and measuring experience or a hearing issue.

I'm reminded of the test High Fidelity did in the early days of digital audio to see whether two listening panels could hear the difference between digital and analogue.

One panel listened on AR LST's, and couldn't detect a difference.

The other panel listened on Mitch Cotter's stacked Quads, and could.

The more things change, the more they stay the same: If you're listening for distortion, do so on low distortion transducers to minimize psychoacoustic masking.

This is so elementary and has been known for so long that I'm surprised I even have to mention it.
 

digititus

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Fantastic results for Benchmark. Bravo. Will definitely keep their products on my radar for the future.
 

DonH56

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Nice system, but by revealing I mean something like stats or ribbons. Though I'm sure it would show up the difference between something like the e38 and the Gungnir MB.

I've always loved the "your system is not revealing enough" argument. Not. Truly sad that no recording studio I've been in used ESLs or ribbons for monitoring and so all of the their recordings are flawed. I like ESLs and ribbons, and planar dynamics, but they have their own flaws. What they are great about is not screwing up the vocal band by putting crossovers in the middle of it. The Salon2's are one of the few conventional dynamic speakers that seem to get that right. But that is only to my bad ears, of course.

They are a much more difficult load than my previous Maggies so I am looking forward to the day I can afford to try a couple of AHB2's on them. Totally cognitive bias, of course, but I expect to be excited. :)

p.s. I suspect DAC "glare" has more to do with the output buffer/filter design than the actual DAC itself. I have not auditioned separate DACs so have no experience with it.
 

LTig

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So you're saying that open baffle ribbon speakers are no more revealing than the typical enclosed dynamic? [..]
Looking at the waterfall spectra of electrostatic speakers it seems they are just increasing the length of some parts of transients. This may let these parts stand out which maybe then sounds more revealing. I don't think that such a behaviour is more accurate though.
 

LTig

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Agreed. But many look at that saturation as being preferable to clipping and therefore more "transparent" overall.
Of course controlled saturation sounds better and maybe more "transparent" than hard clipping. I would prefer to have neither, especially not within the play back chain.
 

LTig

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Far from it. I would point out for example that much of this stuff has been successfully ABX'd, not to mention identified in blind tests. And often, it does correlate with measurements. But I don't know of anyone who can completely predict the sound of a component from measurements. For example, Nelson Pass discovered a few years ago that the addition of third harmonic increases the sense of depth, but only if it's added out of phase. Now who the hell would have guess that? And even if you knew, how would you infer it from a measurement?
As you correctly wrote, such correlations between measurements and what we hear are detected with DBTs. Regarding your example it is now easy to find out whether a component increases the sense of depth - just measure the 3rd harmonic and its phase, e.g. using REW. We just need to know the thresholds: at which level of THD does the sense of space starts to get bigger, and at which level the distortion as such takes over.

However, if the recording engineer thinks that the sound needs more depth he can freely use several tools at hand to do so. If a listener still wants more depth he could use similar tools as well (e.g. AV processors offer several DSP algorithms). Hey, even I sometimes use a Behringer Ultrafex Pro to increase the width of old recordings which are too narrow for my taste. But for all other recordings I prefer a transparent play back chain.
 

JimCo06

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Is there any possible chance of keeping these threads on topic? This thread is supposed to be about the Benchmark AHB2 Amp. While I'm sure many people find these discussions interesting perhaps they could be held in a separate thread. At this point very little of this thread is actually about this amp.
 

gvl

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What is there more to say if we were to stay on topic? It is a perfectly measuring amp. End of story.
 

GrimSurfer

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What is there more to say if we were to stay on topic? It is a perfectly measuring amp. End of story.

Group buy? Discount for ASR members? Half off if you change your monogram to AHB? Free in exchange for kidney?

Seriously -- A lot of audio forums are talking about the AHB2, which is refreshing. When a manufacturer puts out an astonishingly good product at a fair price, they deserve to gain significant market share. They also earn the right to be seen as the benchmark against which others are judged.

In my opinion, every comparative test of amplifiers (regardless of price point) should make reference to the AHB2 or other similarly measured product. It would go a long way in keeping the industry honest and saving unwitting consumers from the over priced/under performing crap out there.
 
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Cortes

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The ABH2 works with European voltage, 220v, or a non-US version is needed?.
 

Frank Dernie

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This is really interesting. Is this documented? If it's true then that technique should be used in the studio instead of the playback chain.
I am maybe stupid but I struggle with the concept of an out of phase odd harmonic. Surely, even if it is out of phase for the first cycle of the fundamental it will be in phase for the second and so on?
Are we saying we can tell which cycle of the fundamental is in phase with the harmonic and which isn’t, or is it bollox?
See as hugely unlikely to me.
 

Willem

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I admire this amplifier, but I have two questions:
1 Will it handle electrostats, and my Quad 2805s in particular?
2 Will the impressive measured performance translate into audible superioity compared to, say, a Quad QSP?
 

josh358

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I am maybe stupid but I struggle with the concept of an out of phase odd harmonic. Surely, even if it is out of phase for the first cycle of the fundamental it will be in phase for the second and so on?
Are we saying we can tell which cycle of the fundamental is in phase with the harmonic and which isn’t, or is it bollox?
See as hugely unlikely to me.
Heh, you're right, of course. I was having trouble remembering whether it was second or third harmonic and got lazy and didn't quibble or, clearly, think about it. But Pass's observation was actually with second harmonic.
 

DonH56

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AHB2, not ABH2... From the Benchmark website:

A.H.B.
The letters A, H, and B allude to the unique topology of the amplifier's output stage. The AHB2 combines class-AB, and class-H topologies using a feed-forward error correction system.​
But there is much more to the story -
The initials A.H.B. can be found on many of the circuit diagrams of Benchmark's early products dating back as far as 1983. These are the initials of Benchmark's founder, Allen H. Burdick. He personally designed many of Benchmark's early products.​
Allen had a life-long passion for audio, and he became one of the leading innovators in the pro-audio industry. The AHB2 is named in his memory.​
 
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josh358

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I admire this amplifier, but I have two questions:
1 Will it handle electrostats, and my Quad 2805s in particular?
2 Will the impressive measured performance translate into audible superioity compared to, say, a Quad QSP?
I don't have first hand experience but since it can handle a two ohm load, I imagine it would handle the Quads easily, since it doesn't even drop to 4 ohms at the top (about 5 ohms with a -45 degree phase angle).

It has a trial period, so you could just order it and see how it does.
 
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