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Review and Measurements of Audio-gd R2R11 DAC & Amp

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#81
I think he does know what he is doing/selling.
But that doesn't mean he knows how to engineer a top quality product like some of the ones we have tested here.
I bet he'll have Amos "currawong" Barnett explain the greatness of his designs to debunk ASR... (channel here)

 
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#82
God I want to see someone test the AS1 (literally Audio Science 1), Kingwa's statement DAC to say "we can make them measure good if we want them to". I'd be honestly fascinated to know.

This of course still poses the biggest concern I think, they are now saying that they intend for the poor measurements but this lies opposite to their own measurements which they have released in the past. It's all well and good to say "this unit has a lot of 2nd and 3rd order harmonic distortion because we like how that sounds", but Audio-GD have been posting specs and measurements that are like >110db SNR which are empirically false.
I think people generally like distortion and different people, like different distortion.
That's why people like different tube amps.
 

BurritoJustice

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#83
I think people generally like distortion and different people, like different distortion.
That's why people like different tube amps.
I understand that and agree.

But what I am talking about is that Audio-GD have consistently published specifications that point to high objective performance (low THD+N) and no mention of intentional distortion. Now that the measurements have come out they are claiming otherwise.

They can't have it both ways.
 

andreasmaaan

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#84
I understand that and agree.

But what I am talking about is that Audio-GD have consistently published specifications that point to high objective performance (low THD+N) and no mention of intentional distortion. Now that the measurements have come out they are claiming otherwise.

They can't have it both ways.
I agree, although they’ve generally only claimed low distortion for some products, while claiming higher (“analogue” sounding) distortion on other products, mostly the R2R stuff.

I can’t recall specific examples, but they’ve generally described products as either “neutral” or “smooth”/“analogue” IIRC. Not sure which category the products tested here are supposed to fall under..

Even on these products, however, their modest claims about objective performance seem to fall way short of the measured reality.
 

Veri

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#85
I agree, although they’ve generally only claimed low distortion for some products, while claiming higher (“analogue” sounding) distortion on other products, mostly the R2R stuff.

I can’t recall specific examples, but they’ve generally described products as either “neutral” or “smooth”/“analogue” IIRC. Not sure which category the products tested here are supposed to fall under..

Even on these products, however, their modest claims about objective performance seem to fall way short of the measured reality.
It now makes sense people could not really hear difference between the R2R and NFB line-ups though :) performance of their NFB sabre products seems even worse than their ladders, or at the least not any better.
 

graz_lag

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#86
Scared after seeing the pictures of their assembling, testing, warehousing facilities ... The worker using the chair as ladder to reach the shelf's top ... And it looks no heated rooms considering the winter clothing's they all dress up ... :rolleyes:

For sure the pull out some quite good profits considering the selling prices they apply ... :oops:
 

Jimster480

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#87
It now makes sense people could not really hear difference between the R2R and NFB line-ups though :) performance of their NFB sabre products seems even worse than their ladders, or at the least not any better.
This is why people say the r2r stuff "sounds better" because it does actually measure better than their garbage Sabre implementations.

People say that the NFB products are filled with "sabre glare" but its actually just the horrific amount of distortions causing these sharp and unwanted sounds.

Its all part of their marketing game and now they are mad that they are busted.
Scared after seeing the pictures of their assembling, testing, warehousing facilities ... The worker using the chair as ladder to reach the shelf's top ... And it looks no heated rooms considering the winter clothing's they all dress up ... :rolleyes:

For sure the pull out some quite good profits considering the selling prices they apply ... :oops:
They are making a metric ton of money considering that its all done in china!
 
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#88
This is why people say the r2r stuff "sounds better" because it does actually measure better than their garbage Sabre implementations.

People say that the NFB products are filled with "sabre glare" but its actually just the horrific amount of distortions causing these sharp and unwanted sounds.

Its all part of their marketing game and now they are mad that they are busted.


They are making a metric ton of money considering that its all done in china!
There are much simpler designs they could choose. I have no doubt Kingwa thinks his stuff sounds better. I have an old Audio-GD Reference 5 (PCM1704UK) and whether or not you think the design choices make sense I can't imagine the man-hours involved in putting that thing together.
 
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#89
I understand that and agree.

But what I am talking about is that Audio-GD have consistently published specifications that point to high objective performance (low THD+N) and no mention of intentional distortion. Now that the measurements have come out they are claiming otherwise.

They can't have it both ways.
Those graphs are just marketing lies, it's to trick people.

This is very interesting case, because people do swear up and down that audio-gd has great "sounding" product.
This just greatly illustrate the point that "PEOPLE LOVE DISTORTION".
In the case of audio-gd, I am guessing that they are purposely introducing distortion to their product. If I have to guess, the way they are introducing distortion is by trial and error. (some one working over their must have this "golden ear" or something)
 

andreasmaaan

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#90
This just greatly illustrate the point that "PEOPLE LOVE DISTORTION".
This is one possible explanation, but it’s also possible that the audible differences are very subtle and people’s preferences are mostly explained by the compelling marketing story, the physical heft of the devices, and the striking internals.

Amir, who is about as experienced as it gets at discerning tiny differences between audio signals in blind testing, described the differences between this DAC and a transparent DAC as “very subtle” to his ears. I doubt most people on most systems could really hear that (although in at least some cases I’ve no doubt your explanation is spot on).
 

BurritoJustice

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#91
I bet he'll have Amos "currawong" Barnett explain the greatness of his designs to debunk ASR... (channel here)

Fun fact, Amos is convinced that Amir is secretly NWAvGuy who has returned to terrorize and harrass audio companies with misinformation because of his hidden agenda. Also something about legal threats through private messages?

The HeadFi Yggdrasil thread is quite something
 

amirm

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#92
Fun fact, Amos is convinced that Amir is secretly NWAvGuy who has returned to terrorize and harrass audio companies with misinformation because of his hidden agenda. Also something about legal threats through private messages?
Yeh, he was spreading that on Head-fi a while back. And what PM? From me or him?
 

BurritoJustice

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#93
Yeh, he was spreading that on Head-fi a while back. And what PM? From me or him?
Supposedly NWAvGuy sent a private message through to Jude that was taken as legally threatening. When he "confirmed" that you are the same person he mentioned the message as the reason for the ban.

I might be misremembering of course, it was a convoluted situation.
 

amirm

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#94
Supposedly NWAvGuy sent a private message through to Jude that was taken as legally threatening. When he "confirmed" that you are the same person he mentioned the message as the reason for the ban.

I might be misremembering of course, it was a convoluted situation.
Jude claimed that in the forum and I strongly responded to him that he was completely wrong. He took away my posting privileges to protect Schiit. Strange how people put up their reputation for sale that way....
 

Jimster480

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#95
Jude claimed that in the forum and I strongly responded to him that he was completely wrong. He took away my posting privileges to protect Schiit. Strange how people put up their reputation for sale that way....
He did the same to me.
he will do the same to anyone who challenges Schiit or another brand that has him on payroll.

This is why he should have no reputation and his forum means nothing at all. I was actually assembling a huge folder of data showing his corruption, maybe some day the opportunity to show this information in a way that will certainly ruin him will present itself.
 

Thomas savage

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#96
I know it sucks but let’s not spend more time getting bitter and twisted about other forums and ‘hey’ Jude. It obvious what goes on at CA and it’s not for me but it’s phenomenally successful and many folks like it. We must concentrate on us, making this place better and trying to keep our noses clean. I’m more a fan of proactive positivity and thinking how we can do better than worrying about how crappy anyone else might be.

Iv seen amirs Y fronts hanging up on the line , the label stitched on them could end this conspiracy. Amir needs to be willing to publish photographs of his Y fronts ..
 

Wombat

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#97
Yeh, he was spreading that on Head-fi a while back. And what PM? From me or him?
NwAvGuy confronted bullshit head-on. Amir is not like that.
 

Jimster480

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#98
I know it sucks but let’s not spend more time getting bitter and twisted about other forums and ‘hey’ Jude. It obvious what goes on at CA and it’s not for me but it’s phenomenally successful and many folks like it. We must concentrate on us, making this place better and trying to keep our noses clean. I’m more a fan of proactive positivity and thinking how we can do better than worrying about how crappy anyone else might be.

Iv seen amirs Y fronts hanging up on the line , the label stitched on them could end this conspiracy. Amir needs to be willing to publish photographs of his Y fronts ..
True true,
It's why I don't even visit headfi to browse anymore.
I just check PM's from time to time, because honestly I don't have the time or care to actually pursue these things.
All these plans I had for Jude basically ceased when I found this forum.
As long as there is a good place like this one to openly have meaningful discussions about our hobby / passion / audio in general... It just doesn't matter to me that much that people like Jude exist.

So I just recommend every person I meet who is interested in audio in some way shape or form to join ASR.
There have been numerous people who have come back and thanked me now for telling them about this forum; and for that I am glad.
It means that the work that is done here and the discussions we have actually are/can be meaningful and have value to others.

Scenarios like this one now with AudioGD make me happy, to see justice served to those selling snake oil or trying to deceive others for their own profit.

Now I did hear a R2R-11 through a Pmillet Nutube amp and I did enjoy it in the sense that it sounded "laid back" like when you are listening to background music in a bar.
But the details in the tracks I picked were clearly missing.

Overall I listened to it for around 10 minutes as others wanted to listen to the setup aswell.
Back around this time I had just got the DX7 and didn't know anything about the performance of R2R products.
After that little test, I wasn't very impressed and later on the owner of the R2R-11 really really enjoyed my DX7.

So to me I think people can enjoy distortion, but once they know of better experiences.... Most will choose the better experience. Provided that they give themselves enough time to get accustomed to it.
 
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