Review and Measurements of Allo Katana and ApplePi Raspberry Pi DACs

[audioBliss]

Digital amp Katana has placed second and analog amp Katana has placed first with Primo DAC

Nowhere in the first 4 places is the Khadas or PencaPI. (and yet they were judged as being good)

I think that at this level differences are minute and it comes down to sound preference .

Isn't ncore an analog amp..?

 

[johan]

Ncore is a class d amp

 

[Zek]

Ncore is a class d amp

But it is an analog amp (D does not mean digital).

 

[johan]

Yes the amp is analog, its a class D because it switches at 400-1Mhz

 

[m8o]

Digital amp Katana has placed second and analog amp Katana has placed first with Primo DAC

Nowhere in the first 4 places is the Khadas or PencaPI. (and yet they were judged as being good)

I think that at this level differences are minute and it comes down to sound preference .

Ah, I see now after the recent post by the author. I took "third" from the following: "Remarkably positively noticed, however, was the new DacBerry Pro+, followed by Primo, Katana SQ, iQ and Boss." The recent itemized list clarifies "second". But also as you note, it is like splitting hairs. The differences are slight. I debated if I would get a Katana vs. some others and now look forward to acquiring a Katana SQ.

If anything this reinforces my desire to see Amir measure and compare both the SQ and THD versions to discover the quantifiable difference and visually illuminate us to the nature of what that is. I'd go so far as to say, never has 'audio' had such an opportunity, with two nearly identical devices but one with a tweek that makes is so that many listeners prefer it over the other.

I'll join the forum to press the issue and ask about "the data". This really is a master work that had a meaningful sample size. It would be a shame to loose all the granular details in the data about clarity, transparency, bass texture, impact, transients, etc.. for each device. To get lost by the final ranking that paints with a very wide brush.

 

[audioBliss]

Ah, I see now after the recent post by the author. I took "third" from the following: "Remarkably positively noticed, however, was the new DacBerry Pro+, followed by Primo, Katana SQ, iQ and Boss." The recent itemized list clarifies "second". But also as you note, it is like splitting hairs. The differences are slight. I debated if I would get a Katana vs. some others and now look forward to acquiring a Katana SQ.

If anything this reinforces my desire to see Amir measure and compare both the SQ and THD versions to discover the quantifiable difference and visually illuminate us to the nature of what that is. I'd go so far as to say, never has 'audio' had such an opportunity, with two nearly identical devices but one with a tweek that makes is so that many listeners prefer it over the other.

I'll join the forum to press the issue and ask about "the data". This really is a master work that had a meaningful sample size. It would be a shame to loose all the granular details in the data about clarity, transparency, bass texture, impact, transients, etc.. for each device. To get lost by the final ranking that paints with a very wide brush.

As far as I can see the DacBerry Pro+ is not for sale yet and there doesn't seem to be an all in one solution you can buy (with case etc.). The Primo is not compatible with Roon Bridge from what I've read so the Katana SQ with isolator is probably still the best buy. I'm very happy with mine. And like has been mentioned it's sort of splitting hairs at this level. That said I'd also like to see hard data on the SQ vs THD.

 

[johan]

Hi

I think that Amir is busy so I will post soon FFT of the SQ version myself. It reaches -102db THD+N but THD (on SQ) is as good as THD+N version
Its noise that increases from 5uV to 14uV and that becomes dominant .

At a point THD+N (around 105 I think) is meaningless (but still important) Do not make a DAC with THD+N of -80 and call that a "SQ dac.."

More and more I think that sound optimization becomes very important . I am not talking about personal preferences but stuff that audiophiles are saying for ages (use a low impedance PSU , low jitter clocks) might have importance on how we perceive sound.

Still each element in itself , do not define the SQ, but maybe multiple "good ones" have an audible effect that might be visible in double blind tests.

I am attaching here , Revolution DAC I have been working on . Our THD+N is already at -113.7 (in fact at -115 , I think , because N at 4.5uV is the floor of our AP machine and thats the dominating one...note that this beats every DAC except Octo and Matrix...and its on single ended) and yet I am finding myself sacrificing some of THD numbers in pursuit of SQ

Its a tedious process , since every resistor/capacitor change , I am sending units to a few people and I average what they say..

Its far from being ready ..

 

[Veri]

I am attaching here , Revolution DAC I have been working on . Our THD+N is already at -113.7 (in fact at -115 , I think , because N at 4.5uV is the floor of our AP machine and thats the dominating one...note that this beats every DAC except Octo and Matrix...and its on single ended) and yet I am finding myself sacrificing some of THD numbers in pursuit of SQ

Its a tedious process , since every resistor/capacitor change , I am sending units to a few people and I average what they say..

Its far from being ready ..

Very exciting! I hope there will be a non-pi standalone DAC from you, in the future
Also looking forward to seeing your PSU design that is in the works

 

[johan]

As far as I can see the DacBerry Pro+ is not for sale yet and there doesn't seem to be an all in one solution you can buy (with case etc.). The Primo is not compatible with Roon Bridge from what I've read so the Katana SQ with isolator is probably still the best buy. I'm very happy with mine. And like has been mentioned it's sort of splitting hairs at this level. That said I'd also like to see hard data on the SQ vs THD.

I am glad you like it. However if you want to absolute best of your Katana , please use a good linear PSU for the hungry opamp stage. Even though the THD+N barely increases ..subjectively its a big change . There is a whole thread on DIYaudio on Katana with good power supply. I think they rate it rather..high.

 

[johan]

Very exciting! I hope there will be a non-pi standalone DAC from you, in the future

Xmos USB input.

 

[m8o]

Xmos USB input.

Hmm, not a RPi HAT? Might there be one with the 40-pin interface?

My further speculation withdrawn. I'll wait until it all comes out.

 

[m8o]

If anything this reinforces my desire to see Amir measure and compare both the SQ and THD versions to discover the quantifiable difference and visually illuminate us to the nature of what that is. I'd go so far as to say, never has 'audio' had such an opportunity, with two nearly identical devices but one with a tweek that makes is so that many listeners prefer it over the other.

Edit & Update to this ...

I've been giving this much thought. I didn't put my thoughts into words before in the post above, as I couldn't quite come up with the right words. I still haven't, not fully. But I'll try and see if I can do a sufficient job...

I would also not be surprised if there is not a very quantifiable / measurable difference between Katana SQ and THD versions that should account for why many feel it has a more pleasing presentation. Sure, there is already the aforementioned higher noise floor & THD of the SQ version. But I cant believe that is very noticable at the levels the noise H THD is at. Or that is behind what is deemed "more desirable".

I would attribute "more desirable" to be very much in the analog domain and be such things as better transparancy, better textured impact & time dependent tonal decay: i.e more 'timber-ful' music, not just of the primary tones but also of their decay in time... and how it all blends in 1/60th to 1/80th of a second beats. I daresay little to none of that will be capture in tradition measurements we are accustomed to here to illustrate a difference between the technicals of audio device design vs. the far less understood 'black art' of making a good sounding device design ... which Johan does seems to have mastered; after all, a SQ version was successfully made for a reason, right?. (perhaps a waterfall plot [?] can hint at the time dependent behavior? but it too not capture and quantify fully just where "the magic" lies.)

Anyway, in short, I would love to see whether analytical analysis can divulge a reason for why a large segment [is it a majority?] of owners or listeners prefer the Katana SQ vs. THD ... but I wouldn't be surprised either that Amir and every reader be left scratching their heads at the data/graphs and all collectively say "that difference in the measurements can't possibly explain why there is a clear preference of the SQ version". ...prove me wrong!

 

[audioBliss]

I am glad you like it. However if you want to absolute best of your Katana , please use a good linear PSU for the hungry opamp stage. Even though the THD+N barely increases ..subjectively its a big change . There is a whole thread on DIYaudio on Katana with good power supply. I think they rate it rather..high.

I bought the power supplies that where on the allo.com website... What power supply do you recommend? I run one for the pi board and one for the DAC. It would be nice if you could buy the correct power supply directly on the website or a link to a one that has been measured to be good.

 

[orchardaudio]

It looks like the PecanPi was not a part of all tests because they ran out of time:

"We did second round on analog amp only with the 5 boards, because short of time (after 10pm), as i wrote before. PecanPi could have won round two, but we don't know now."

 

[Veri]

It looks like the PecanPi was not a part of all tests because they ran out of time:

"We did second round on analog amp only with the 5 boards, because short of time (after 10pm), as i wrote before. PecanPi could have won round two, but we don't know now."

Well that's a pity

 

[orchardaudio]

Class-D implementations vary significantly. Some have DSPs some have FPGAs or other digital devices, some don't have any digital devices.

For example BOSC uses a proprietary modulator with just op-amps and comparators, no digital devices at all. So it is truly an analog amp, even though it is Class-D.

 

[johan]

This is the actual unedited message from Judy :

" i think it's clear. We liked Pecan Pi, but we liked 5 boards better than PecanPi. we did second round on analog amp only with the 5 boards, because short of time (after 10pm), as i wrote before. PecanPi could have won round two, but we don't know now. "

 

[johan]

Edit & Update to this ...

I've been giving this much thought. I didn't put my thoughts into words before in the post above, as I couldn't quite come up with the right words. I still haven't, not fully. But I'll try and see if I can do a sufficient job...

I would also not be surprised if there is not a very quantifiable / measurable difference between Katana SQ and THD versions that should account for why many feel it has a more pleasing presentation. Sure, there is already the aforementioned higher noise floor & THD of the SQ version. But I cant believe that is very noticable at the levels the noise H THD is at. Or that is behind what is deemed "more desirable".

I would attribute "more desirable" to be very much in the analog domain and be such things as better transparancy, better textured impact & time dependent tonal decay: i.e more 'timber-ful' music, not just of the primary tones but also of their decay in time... and how it all blends in 1/60th to 1/80th of a second beats. I daresay little to none of that will be capture in tradition measurements we are accustomed to here to illustrate a difference between the technicals of audio device design vs. the far less understood 'black art' of making a good sounding device design ... which Johan does seems to have mastered; after all, a SQ version was successfully made for a reason, right?. (perhaps a waterfall plot [?] can hint at the time dependent behavior? but it too not capture and quantify fully just where "the magic" lies.)

Anyway, in short, I would love to see whether analytical analysis can divulge a reason for why a large segment [is it a majority?] of owners or listeners prefer the Katana SQ vs. THD ... but I wouldn't be surprised either that Amir and every reader be left scratching their heads at the data/graphs and all collectively say "that difference in the measurements can't possibly explain why there is a clear preference of the SQ version". ...prove me wrong!

I think thats the crux of the battles between 2 camps . One camp swear by THD+N and another camp by how they perceive the sound.

Who is right ? Both in my opinion . THD+N is an indication of good engineering but also THD camp agrees that past a certain level THD is almost meaningless
People that swear by what they hear..sometimes they like DACs with horrendous distortion (audio gd ?) , however they also have a few rules that were implemented in the Katana SQ. Low impendance in the rails , pre IV stage filtering and secret sauce that we implemented into the SQ version

I am unable to see in the Katana SQ testing any advantage (it measures worst ) yet many people prefer it..myself included.

 

[Biblob]

Was it a double blinded test? If not, I find it hard to believe what you and the other test results.

 

[orchardaudio]

To me if certain DACs were excluded from tests it is not a fair test and shows bias.