That's only true if you come off the I2S header. I am in the process right now of having mine upgraded to add a spidf out. My tech will be taking the feed right from the point where it feeds into the dac, and that will not disable Dirac.
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Review and Measurements and miniDSP 2x4 HD DSP and DAC
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
I’m a longtime user of minidsp2x4hd. I found replacing the wall wart power supply with a good quality analogue supply very noticeably reduced noise on output.
I also found care had to be taken to avoid inadvertent connection system groundloops if using minidsp’s multiple inputs. PC, minidsp and power amps all on same ac outlet seems necessary in my setup.
I can directly connect to power amp with 0db input volume and no signal and just barely hear noise at speaker now.
I wish minidsp would come up with an 8 or 10 channel SHD version.
I also found care had to be taken to avoid inadvertent connection system groundloops if using minidsp’s multiple inputs. PC, minidsp and power amps all on same ac outlet seems necessary in my setup.
I can directly connect to power amp with 0db input volume and no signal and just barely hear noise at speaker now.
I wish minidsp would come up with an 8 or 10 channel SHD version.
HansHolland
Active Member
Hello all, I have a few questions:
first:
-I understand that the miniDSP is as a DAC not the best choice.
-I have a RME ADI-2 DAC FS. And the RME has an equalizer build in.
-So, I am only interested in the miniDSP as a crossover
Now the questions:
1:
Is the miniDSP better or worse than a (cheap) analog active crossover (assuming no equalizing is needed)?
I am thinking about the around 100 Euro/US Dollar public address ones (some have distortion figures below 0.01%).
2:
And what about the comparison with passive crossovers?
I know that passive crossovers do not have noise.
But distortion (coils)?
3:
Is the miniDSP better or worse than the (cheap) public address competition?
I am thinking about the Behringer DCX2496, etc.
Why?
I am thinking about playing around with DIY loudspeakers.
I will use the analog in of the miniDSP.
For now it must not cost too much. If I am happy with the result, then I can improve the components (Marchand Electronics or DEQX or ...?).
Thanks in advance, Hans
first:
-I understand that the miniDSP is as a DAC not the best choice.
-I have a RME ADI-2 DAC FS. And the RME has an equalizer build in.
-So, I am only interested in the miniDSP as a crossover
Now the questions:
1:
Is the miniDSP better or worse than a (cheap) analog active crossover (assuming no equalizing is needed)?
I am thinking about the around 100 Euro/US Dollar public address ones (some have distortion figures below 0.01%).
2:
And what about the comparison with passive crossovers?
I know that passive crossovers do not have noise.
But distortion (coils)?
3:
Is the miniDSP better or worse than the (cheap) public address competition?
I am thinking about the Behringer DCX2496, etc.
Why?
I am thinking about playing around with DIY loudspeakers.
I will use the analog in of the miniDSP.
For now it must not cost too much. If I am happy with the result, then I can improve the components (Marchand Electronics or DEQX or ...?).
Thanks in advance, Hans
In my opinion the minidsp 2x4 HD...if equipped with an analogue power supply instead of the provided wallwart, and if care taken to avoid ground loops, will be very quiet.
the minidsp SHD has a better quality DAC.
2x4’s internal DAC is mediocre in measurements, but I don’t know how noticeable that is.
It’s performance on analogue input is not great...I simply don’t use analogue in.
BUT...If you are designing a system, it is superbly capable of just about any crossover topology, and can add delay to drivers to get timing exactly right. I like the Harsch topology cross, which would be very difficult to implement in a post amp crossover.
once I have settled on the final drivers and configuration I like, I will copy the minidsp setup into an opamp crossover after a higher quality DAC.
the minidsp SHD has a better quality DAC.
2x4’s internal DAC is mediocre in measurements, but I don’t know how noticeable that is.
It’s performance on analogue input is not great...I simply don’t use analogue in.
BUT...If you are designing a system, it is superbly capable of just about any crossover topology, and can add delay to drivers to get timing exactly right. I like the Harsch topology cross, which would be very difficult to implement in a post amp crossover.
once I have settled on the final drivers and configuration I like, I will copy the minidsp setup into an opamp crossover after a higher quality DAC.
spectral85
Member
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2020
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miniDSP 2x4 HD SINAD please
I think you will get lesser quality going with an external DAC through analog vs. the internal DAC. I read about the degradation somewhere, but do not have a source to back that up, so take it with a grain of salt. I have a system with JBL 530s in a nearfield configuration, and I am not getting any audible noise.
On a side note, I owned a ADI-2 FS and used it as a headphone amp and pre-amp/DAC for monitors. I do not notice any major (positive or negative) difference between the two. I ended up getting the DDRC-24 version of the miniDSP (same unit, but preloaded with Dirac), and it makes a much bigger difference than any change in DACs. I am now a firm believer that room correction, even in a nearfield setup, as it makes a bigger difference than most DAC upgrades. Your mileage may differ, just passing along my experience.
HansHolland
Active Member
First, thanks for the replies.
My problem with the miniDSP is that it will resample the input signals. I have had multiple bad experiences with resampling (no problem with upsampling). But I must write that I have never heard a miniDSP, so that implemantation might be ok. And with using the analog input, there will be no resampling.
Further: more and more studio monitors have a DSP (with crossover). Most of them have only an analog input. I think about Dynaudio, ADAM, EVE... So a (good) ADC should be no problem.
And then the comparison with an analog crossover can be made. Both have analog inputs and analog outputs. I will be not surprised if the ADC and the DAC in the miniDSP add less distortion to the signal than an analog crossover does. But I have never seen such a comparison. That's what my question is about.
My problem with the miniDSP is that it will resample the input signals. I have had multiple bad experiences with resampling (no problem with upsampling). But I must write that I have never heard a miniDSP, so that implemantation might be ok. And with using the analog input, there will be no resampling.
Further: more and more studio monitors have a DSP (with crossover). Most of them have only an analog input. I think about Dynaudio, ADAM, EVE... So a (good) ADC should be no problem.
And then the comparison with an analog crossover can be made. Both have analog inputs and analog outputs. I will be not surprised if the ADC and the DAC in the miniDSP add less distortion to the signal than an analog crossover does. But I have never seen such a comparison. That's what my question is about.
I read all 10 pages of comments and what I gather is the DAC of the miniDSP 2x4HD is subjectively and/or objectively not great. That set aside, if one wants to use it only for integrating 2 subwoofers with an AVR, is it still considered not great? I am talking taking the AVR pre-out into the miniDSP, then connecting the two subwoofers so you can do manual time alignment, delays, EQ from REW. So the AVR will see the subs as 1 and you may or may not decide to apply Audyssey.
Is there an alternative or a better product that can do that job ideally compatible with REW EQ filters?
Is there an alternative or a better product that can do that job ideally compatible with REW EQ filters?
It ought to be ok for that application. The problem with the dac will be more readily apparent if you use it as a high pass filter.
Hmm. If you measure it as Armin did it does not perform as well as some better DACs, primarily because it introduces some noise that can be observed with test equipment. However this noise is at very low levels as someone else said "Whether any noise or jitter or harmonics which are 100 db down are at all audible, is highly debatable. "
I have the version of this running Dirac (MiniDSP DDRC-24). Same hardware but with Dirac software upgrade. Even at very uncomfortably high noise levels I can not hear any noise. I have a 200W amplifier in a moderately large room and do crank it up from time to time. My system is amongst the best I have heard. 100dB down noise is of no issue to me....I can't hear it.
At first I just bought it to play and learn about DSP.....but I became gob smacked with what it can do....and how simply and well it does it.
I was using a Mission DAC playing into an Accoustic Research valve amp. After owning auditioning may DAC and preamp components, I settled on these two items as I liked the character of sound they produced with the rest of my system. I found the system was tailored well to my preferred music genre tastes but the character of sound was not well suited to other genres. Before buying the MinDSP unit I had purchased another DAC E30 DAC to try. (Both it and the Mission are now for sale).
I was also using the crossover built into my SVS sub woofer.
I now use the MiniDSP DRC-24 as my DAC, preamp and room correction system and I also use the parametric equalier function. (More on this in a moment).
Here's what I like.
1. Dirac frequency response and phase response room/speaker correction provides a stunning improvement in sound quality worth many times more than the downside of noise ......100dB down that I can't hear. (Get over noise you can measure and are unlikely to hear)
2. Dirac sounds much better than just REW frequency response correction which I have experimented with (and liked) on the past in my system.
3. I suspect Dirac sounds just as good as REW + Phase correction software, but I haven't played with using phase correction with REW. But much easier to set up and I can save different presets I can select from the MinDSP remote.
4. The MiniDSP parammetric qualiser function is a bonus. I have further tailored remote selectable presets to suit my preferences for different genres of music (no longer stuck with one sound characteristic).
5. The very MiniDSP's very flexible crossover is a bonus. I have disabled the crossover in my high end sub woofer and now use the crossover in the MiniDSP. I can select from a variety of different types of crossover and different cross over slopes and I cancontrol both when the woofers in my main speakers roll off (couldn't do this before) and when the sub woofer starts doing it's thing. Integrating a single woofer is simple and effective.
6. I still use my passive room correction (bass traps) as well. Dirac provides very noticeabl icing on top of a already reasonable room acoustics.
The result? This cheap unit has replaced my expensive DAC and Preamp. I am no longer interested in audtioning more DACs or preamps to explore different characters of sound. My sound is now very tailorable. I don't have to chose between a DAC with this sound or a DAC with that sound. I can have either at the push of a button on the remote. For the firt time I can tailor/personalise the sound to my own preferences. I have come to the realisation that DSP is the future of high end audio.
If MiniDSP or anyone else comes up with a DSP system that has similar functionality and can improve the sound further I will buy it. But at the moment I am enjoying the best sound I have ever heard from the rest of my system.
Please don't get distracted by issues you probably won't hear, that will stop you taking advantage of sonic improvements that could be stunning.
Thank you @Sonicears for that clarification! I think then it is a no brainer to use the miniDSP for subs eq and alignment and prep things for the AVR's built in room correction, or avoid it if you can setup phase manually.
Nango
Major Contributor
Is this an option for the same purpose?
https://www.oaudio.de/minidsp/weitere-dsp-produkte/omnitronic-xo-300-aktive-frequenzweiche.html
https://www.oaudio.de/minidsp/weitere-dsp-produkte/omnitronic-xo-300-aktive-frequenzweiche.html
Great post IMO. I know zero about DIRAC, but without it minidsp2x4 HD is an amazingly capable little box. I wish it were 2x8.
Noise levels (for me) are of absolutely zero concern for two reasons...
1 I only use digital in
2 I replaced their supplied switching wall wart with a linear supply.
result? Wide open Hafler XL 280 with 0 dB volume setting and nothing playing...you can hear the noise, just barely, at listening position. Any music playing? You hear no noise at all. I listen to loudest music at -20 dB.
And then you figure out crossover capability with every imaginable tool at you disposal. Not just choices of any topology, but allpass delays and FIR for perfect phase. It brings
whether or not you settle your DIY speaker onto another crossover, the minidsp is indispensable in figuring out, trialling and enjoying the possibilities with real-time button-press ability to compare.
I have no preamp...no need with dsp
Yes. The software is different for the HD. https://www.minidsp.com/products/plugins/2x4-hd-plugins/2x4hd1-detail
I don’t think any other analog out minidsp product (aside from the sh series which has better DAC, but you can’t get it without expensive DIRAC) is as good as 2x4 HD.
Thanks for confirming. I have one other question if it’s possible to answer.I have a Yamaha wxa-50 amp with a sub out but I’m not happy with how it actually works. If I add the mini dsphd into the mix will the mini dsp override whatever the Yamaha amp is doing with the bass (I can turn off the bass management such that’s it is through a web login on the Yamaha)
I have a Yamaha Rxa3030 receiver...it is frustratingly impossible to insert a minidsp into the signal path. You can connect it analogue to the preamp outs of the receiver and drive your speakers with an external amp, but sq suffers on minidsp analogue inputs (much better with digital in).
internally, the Yamaha unit does have dsp, but those capabilities are not useful except for slight gain adjustment and some freq response shaping. Minidsp has all the tools needed, Yamaha preamps do not.
what I found is best, and this is a bit strange, is the following...
- Set the receiver to deliver audio via HDMI to the tv.
- Take the toslink audio out from the tv to the minidsp (digital audio to minidsp). TV’s allow you to extract the digital stereo stream from HDMI, but even high end receivers do not.
- drive speakers/subs from external amps to minidsp.
hooking it up like that allows me to use the Yamaha as a preamp, so that source selection works...but volume control and amplification must be external to the yamaha.
This setup would allow you to drive a sub with the full capability of minidsp, plus give you full parametric control of the main audio channel.
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