Revel Salon2, B&W 802 D3, or similarly priced speakers + Benchmark chain?

[MZKM]

I'd argue that auditioning them is best, if not in your own system at least in similar systems and rooms to compare.

I've listened to them at my local Magnolia DC (my nearest BB unfortunately is just a plain BB), and with the $30,000 McIntosh gear ($60,000 total), I thought it sounded pretty good, but nowhere near it's price tag of course; barring the looks, if you asked me how much it should cost, I would probably say $5000 if it didn't have bass, but it did have bass so a bit more (probably not $10,000).

Granted, I likely wouldn't say the Salon's are worth their price-tag either, as that's also a lot of money (the cons of being in a niche market).

 

[anmpr1]

I've listened to them at my local Magnolia DC (my nearest BB unfortunately is just a plain BB), and with the $30,000 McIntosh gear ($60,000 total), I thought it sounded pretty good, but nowhere near it's price tag of course; barring the looks).

Speakers in the mid to upper price range have to sport a huge cosmetic face. Cabinetry has to cost something. And dealers have to stay in business. I personally don't think many 'expensive' loudspeakers are worth the dollars, but it's a pay to play game. If one is not on a budget, and if one is able to afford 60K of McIntosh gear, it doesn't matter. But for everyone else? I bought my speakers just as a new model was coming out. The new version is priced four thousand dollars (the pair) higher. As much as I like them, I wouldn't pay that kind of premium for what they offer. To tell you the truth, I have no idea how prices are even set, given the kinds of sonic value you can get for around two thousand dollars a pair, or even less.

 

[vavan]

Revel states -0.5dB at 29hz, but that number is optimistic at best, and misleading at worst

I'm sure revel specs are rather accurate

 

[andreasmaaan]

I don't know why you'd want to do it, but a lot of people do. I'm not sure if they all do it at 80hz, perhaps 40hz would be better. I think you might want to have the subs take over at 30hz, Revel states -0.5dB at 29hz, but that number is optimistic at best, and misleading at worst.

There are two published sets of anechoic measurements for the Salon2, both (I believe) from the manufacturer. They both show a fairly uneven response below 100Hz, with neither making it down to -3dB/29Hz, although it's not clear whether this is attributable to the speaker or the chamber(s) in which it was measured.

FWIW, other speakers in the Revel line, which may have been measured under the same conditions, don't appear to show similar quirks in low-end response that might suggest anechoic chamber issues. Also, I have no idea where these measurements came from, so their reliability/authenticity must be somewhat doubtful.

In any case, my suggestion @SplitTime would be to look at F228Be, which appears in fact to measure better than the Salon2 (see second link).

 

[Bear123]

I don't know why you'd want to do it, but a lot of people do. I'm not sure if they all do it at 80hz, perhaps 40hz would be better. I think you might want to have the subs take over at 30hz, Revel states -0.5dB at 29hz, but that number is optimistic at best, and misleading at worst.

People use subs, particularly well designed, properly placed dual subs in order to improve sound quality. Even with tower speakers that can play fairly low. The bass from dual subs will be of higher quality, lower distortion and a smoother response i.e. higher fidelity. Crossing over the speaker at 80 Hz will require less power and improve sound quality. Since the goal for many is high fidelity, accuracy, neutrality etc, and people are, as can be seen from this thread, willing to spend huge sums of money to chase good sound quality, it really makes no sense to forego subs.

I would take a great pair of $2,000 speakers coupled with fantastic subs over two speakers of any cost without subs(if sound quality were the main objective) I'd be willing to bet blind testing in such a scenario would favor the cheaper speakers with subs. Also, the ability to tailor the low end to taste with things like Dynamic eq or even just adjust subwoofer levels make it a more flexible setup.

Since subs do bass better than speakers, crossing at 80 Hz is likely to produce a better result than crossing at 40 Hz.

 

[Jinjuku]

They both show a fairly uneven response below 100Hz, with neither making it down to -3dB/29Hz, although it's not clear whether this is attributable to the speaker or the chamber(s) in which it was measured.

It's typical to see this response as room mode will be the primary cause. Which is why separate sub's placed in room where needed, is what is normally done.

 

[andreasmaaan]

It's typical to see this response as room mode will be the primary cause. Which is why separate sub's placed in room where needed, is what is normally done.

Sure, but I speculated that in this case it may not be a mode as it doesn't appear in other measurements by the same manufacturer, and appears to some degree in both measurements of the Salon2. Impossible to know, though.

Subs are always better, agree!

 

[SplitTime]

Amir said he hasn’t bothered to connect a sub to supplement the Salon2 low frequency. Are there any subs with THD & frequency response data? If going with this option (or a less expensive speaker + sub combo) - short of buying and testing it in my room - what measurable / or demo-able options exist? What subs are measurably good?

It does seem like a blind test with various bookshelf + sub combinations vs tower speakers would be interesting. Has this actually been tried?

 

[Bear123]

Amir said he hasn’t bothered to connect a sub to supplement the Salon2 low frequency. Are there any subs with THD & frequency response data? If going with this option (or a less expensive speaker + sub combo) - short of buying and testing it in my room - what measurable / or demo-able options exist? What subs are measurably good?

It does seem like a blind test with various bookshelf + sub combinations vs tower speakers would be interesting. Has this actually been tried?

Data-Bass is a great resource: https://data-bass.com/#/?_k=9z8rh7

If I were in the market for subs, I would look at Hsu, PSA, and Rythmik. Hsu is the value leader with their VTF2.5 and VTF3.5. ULS15 if you want a small sealed sub.

Rythmik is known for low extension ported subs and good quality sealed subs, all of which use servo technology to improve sound quality.

PSA uses all high sensitivity ultra low distortion high excursion pro audio drivers....they hold a fairly unique spot in the subwoofer business due to this.

I chose the DIY route to get the most bang for my buck with a pair of these:
https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5c48e01911126b0004ca12ec?_k=qyuamt

PSA has the closest ID equivalent to this type of sub with their S1812 and S3012.

 

[Todesengel]

I was in a similar situation deciding between the Salon 2 and 800D3. I never got to audition either prior to purchase. The reason I went with the B&W was out of fear that the Salon 3 was on the horizon, a refresh has to be imminent at this point.
I recently had the opportunity to listen to a pair of KEF Blades, for what its worth they didn't hold a candle to the B&W IMO. I also run Canton Vento Reference 1DC in my theater room which does not compare to the 800D3 IMO either.

I am enjoying my 800D3, I am not sure what everyone is talking about a 'house sound'. In my room without EQ they measure relatively flat (sweep attached). I do run a custom curve on the lower end with my Funk 24" sealed subs, that is intentional. If you are in the market you won't find a better made sub, the distortion specs are ridiculous as well since the 24" driver doesn't have to move much to get things going.

https://www.funkaudio.ca/

 

[SplitTime]

I was in a similar situation deciding between the Salon 2 and 800D3. I never got to audition either prior to purchase. The reason I went with the B&W was out of fear that the Salon 3 was on the horizon, a refresh has to be imminent at this point.
I recently had the opportunity to listen to a pair of KEF Blades, for what its worth they didn't hold a candle to the B&W IMO. I also run Canton Vento Reference 1DC in my theater room which does not compare to the 800D3 IMO either.

I am enjoying my 800D3, I am not sure what everyone is talking about a 'house sound'. In my room without EQ they measure relatively flat (sweep attached). I do run a custom curve on the lower end with my Funk 24" sealed subs, that is intentional. If you are in the market you won't find a better made sub, the distortion specs are ridiculous as well since the 24" driver doesn't have too move much to get things going.

https://www.funkaudio.ca/

Thanks for the feedback. First - I must say I love the scale of the picture on the wall compared to the speakers. Really sets the tone (pun intended) for what the priorities are. Since I have a dedicated room - I might just have to do the same thing - just to watch my wife’s response when she sees it. Second, and I’m not Intending to nit-pick, the y-axis scale on your curve is 50dB — it looks pretty base heavy? Just eyeballing it 70Hz-300Hz looks to be about 20dB higher than the frequency range above 800Hz? People love bass; it seems as if you’re running a custom curve because you like it this way. I will check out the Funk subs (and the data-bass.com from @Bear123.) Thanks for the pointers.

 

[Todesengel]

Second, and I’m not Intending to nit-pick, the y-axis scale on your curve is 50dB — it looks pretty base heavy? Just eyeballing it 70Hz-300Hz looks to be about 20dB higher than the frequency range above 800Hz? People love bass; it seems as if you’re running a custom curve because you like it this way. I will check out the Funk subs (and the data-bass.com from @Bear123.) Thanks for the pointers.

Currently travelling and my laptop has only a 1080p display, I am not aware of how to capture 0-20kHz in REW without zooming out (thus the 50dB scale). I have attached bass response 0-200Hz with 10dB increments. In the zone that matters for 'boomy' bass [50-80Hz] I am only running 10-13dB hot, which isn't that much- IIRC human hearing isn't as sensitive down there. I'm big into home theater and this type of boost is quite common. The real fun stuff happens <30Hz where I run +30dB (room response assisted). If you want to feel your music this is where the magic happens.

To each their own- obviously I prefer to run my system this way because it sounds best to me. The Funks have amazing EQ capability you can make their response whatever you want

 

[Ron Texas]

Part of the equation is how much is enough? Some of the larger tower speakers go fairly low and have the guts to be equalized to a Harman curve. That's enough for many but not everyone. Adding low bass response to a tower speaker is more expensive than adding subs to a speaker with a restricted low end. That makes me wonder what is the optimum cost wise. Probably something like flat to 50hz.

 

[SplitTime]

I have attached bass response 0-200Hz with 10dB increments. In the zone that matters for 'boomy' bass [50-80Hz] I am only running 10-13dB hot, which isn't that much- IIRC human hearing isn't as sensitive down there. I'm big into home theater and this type of boost is quite common. The real fun stuff happens <30Hz ...

I am also on a flight and I could not see the x-axis on the curve from your initial post. Now I realize I had guessed wrong about the x-axis marks and was off by a decade (I thought they were a full decade higher than they actually were.) Thanks for the clarification & safe travels.

 

[DonH56]

My reasons for using subs include lower distortion than the mains, deeper bass (7 Hz @ -3 dB in my room), and most importantly the ability to improve frequency response through placement of the subs to cancel room modes and SBIR -- not possible with the mains without compromising the stereo image.

Given crossovers are not brick walls, I prefer to have good bass from the mains an octave below the crossover, bearing in mind AVRs use 12 dB/octave so an octave down the mains are about half as loud even though at 1/10th the power (offset in part by the equal-loudness contours that tend to boost the bass).

I am happy with my Salon2/Rythmik sub speaker array.

YMMV - Don

 

[SplitTime]

Part of the equation is how much is enough? Some of the larger tower speakers go fairly low and have the guts to be equalized to a Harman curve. That's enough for many but not everyone. Adding low bass response to a tower speaker is more expensive than adding subs to a speaker with a restricted low end. That makes me wonder what is the optimum cost wise. Probably something like flat to 50hz.

Yes, it has me wondering too! This is what I was referring to in terms of blind testing in my previous post ... has anyone (Harman or other?) tested a smaller speaker with a separate sub (properly set up of course) against a single tower speaker.

My existing system is about 15 years old - essentially book shelf speakers + a sub. Polk LSi9s in a 5.1 surround. I also have a pair of Paradyne Studio 20 v.5 that I’d run in a 2.1 setup (different room.)

I have a feeling I won’t need full range down below 10Hz - although I’d like very much to hear that. Still, I’d never get to listen to it without the xxD+N of my wife screaming at me at the same time.

 

[SplitTime]

I am happy with my Salon2/Rythmik sub speaker array.
YMMV - Don

Would you share which Rythmik sub you’re using? I was just looking at the FV18 on data-bass... Thanks again!

 

[blueone]

I was in a similar situation deciding between the Salon 2 and 800D3. I never got to audition either prior to purchase. The reason I went with the B&W was out of fear that the Salon 3 was on the horizon, a refresh has to be imminent at this point.
I recently had the opportunity to listen to a pair of KEF Blades, for what its worth they didn't hold a candle to the B&W IMO. I also run Canton Vento Reference 1DC in my theater room which does not compare to the 800D3 IMO either.

I am enjoying my 800D3, I am not sure what everyone is talking about a 'house sound'. In my room without EQ they measure relatively flat (sweep attached). I do run a custom curve on the lower end with my Funk 24" sealed subs, that is intentional. If you are in the market you won't find a better made sub, the distortion specs are ridiculous as well since the 24" driver doesn't have too move much to get things going.

https://www.funkaudio.ca/

I agree with you completely about Funk subs, though I don't have a pair of 24" models. They sure do look rather imposing. One 18" does great for me, since I run the Salon2s full-range and use the DSP in the sub to tune the bass at my listening seat with an OmniMic. Of course that strategy works with the Salon2s because the woofer section is essentially a subwoofer (what with a 150Hz low-pass frequency) and does indeed reach down into the 20Hz range, so it's like having three subs for music at least. If you want 100db 10Hz bass for action movies that's another cup of tea. My room is quite large, so I don't get strong bass peaks with the Salon2s placed for imaging, and the sub just fills in dips and raises the entire bass range a bit (about 6db). I set up something like this for a friend with a MiniDSP, his 802D1s, and an SVS sub, and it works rather well. His B&Ws are too colored for my tastes, but he thinks the Salon2s are somewhat dull for his. To each his own.

I heard the KEF Blades, and they do seem a bit challenged in the bass for that sort of money. Perhaps it was just the dealer set up. I would like to hear the 800D3 sometime, I read and heard great things about them, though I would dread the budget hit if I liked them.

 

[blueone]

I was in a similar situation deciding between the Salon 2 and 800D3. I never got to audition either prior to purchase. The reason I went with the B&W was out of fear that the Salon 3 was on the horizon, a refresh has to be imminent at this point.

I suspect that there isn't an Ultima3 line on the horizon at all. Samsung seems to be focusing Harman's resources on automotive systems.

 

[Ron Texas]

@blueone there is speculation that the entire Ultima line is out of production with all sales now being from existing stock. Only the Studio 2 is officially discontinued. I agree Samsung bought Harman to get the connected technology. It's probably going to find uses beyond cars.