Revel PerformaBe F226Be Floorstanding Speaker Review

[Rsauditt]

When I purchase a piece of equipment, I bring it in to my room, using my equipment, my treatments, and then I make a decision on what’s sounds the best to me. How are measurements going to tell me how a piece of equipment works with my other gear? Say for example a tube preamp with a solid state amp that I have? How are measurements going to tell me that this particular speaker will work in my exact size room with my equipment, with my cables and my room treatments? Measurements can’t.
I do use measurements for speaker sensitivity to make sure my amp is powerful enough to drive them, but that’s about it. I know manufacturers use measurements when designing a piece of equipment, but in the end, even manufacturers use their ears to decide if it’s ready for production.
System synergy is what I’m looking for.

 

[jeffaegrim]

There can always be further discussion. In fact, there can be disagreement. However, on a website dedicated to logic and use of scientific principles, the disagreements need to be founded on rigorously-sorted examples backed up by measurements, as if the post were a paper submitted to peer review.

We don't be perfessers here, but we be close!

Yes, pardon, I didn’t mean to imply that any further discussion is to be terminated - but as you said: the points made by one of the most prolific personalities in the field are to be touched upon and countered with substantial evidence, otherwise the counter arguments are to be disregarded, imo. Yeah, yeah, appeal to authority. An easily justifiable one.

 

[jeffaegrim]

BS on measurements. My ears are the only measurement tools I need.
Simple question, is it easier to push a 8” ball or a 15” ball? If you have a 200 watt amp, what size diaphragm would be easier to move: 1”, 5”, 8”, 12”, 15”? Why do you see the power of the amp go way up with the size of the speaker? The rel t5x has a 8” driver, try pushing a 12” driver with that size amp. The bigger Rel’s with the larger cones have 3-5x the power. For home theater, I’d get a 12” or 15” for the full impact.
I also prefer speaker systems with the multiple smaller woofers like the Revel or Raidho

I’m not sure if I understand you correctly, but bigger speakers are usually easier to drive than smaller speakers, if I’m not mistaken. My speakers need ~1W in stereo to get to 88db. They weigh 63kg each and have a 15“ woofer. Few bookshelf speakers will do that.

 

[Rsauditt]

It all depends on the speaker. I used to have the totem Mani II’s with 2-7” drivers with a 85db sensitivity rating, but my revel f226be have 2-6.5” woofers with a 90db sensitivity. IMO, a SET setup with high efficient speakers cannot do certain genres justice, like heavy rock/progressive rock, the bass is too mellow. I had my Totems hooked up to 1000 watt monoblocks pushing over 250 watts by the meters and they sounded fantastic. I also don’t think tube amps control woofers well. I had a nice tube amp with 100 watts with kt120 tubes and my 7” drivers sounded a little flabby/loose. I bought a bigger 250 watt SS amp and they controlled the woofers much better.

 

[ahofer]

How are measurements going to tell me how a piece of equipment works with my other gear

Output and input impedance, frequency response, distortion, noise, gain will all tell you. Fortunately most electronics are pretty neutral.

You might want to look around here before going down this path. Synergy, beyond the basics of signal path matching, is mostly a scam pushed by the industry.

Speakers are more complicated. Basic ideas here:

Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

"Different" isn't better.

audiosciencereview.com

I’m assuming pursuit of Fidelity. If you are in search of highly variable distortion as in an OTL amp-speaker chain, you’d have to have some sort of reference measurement of your preferred sound in order to use measurements to select the equipment.

 

[Jim Taylor]

My ears are the only measurement tools I need.

The human sensory system is easily fooled. In the first place, it is subject to many biases, especially visual and auditory:

Yanny or Laurel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Constant spectrum melody - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The purpose of these illusions (above) is simply to inform people that their perception can be fooled.

The list of biases is quite long, and not at all confined to the senses, but pervade logic as well:

List of cognitive biases - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

However ... the auditory biases are quite strong:

Bias in Auditory Perception - Marjoleine Sloos, Denis McKeown, 2015

The reason for biases is efficiency; they are shortcuts:

Tomorrow Bio - Home

www.tomorrow.bio

Cognitive Shortcuts — Navigating Challenging Dialogue

So I have a question for you: Would you rather go for a leisurely walk on a flat paved path or would you rather bushwhack your way through new and uncharted territory? For me, the answer depends on the day. It depends on how much energy I have, how much time I have, and what I anticipate the rewa

ncdsolution.com

So you see, people don't hear with their ears ... they hear with their BRAIN. And the brain is busy using bias, whereas instruments are not. Humans are emotional; instruments are not. One of the pillars of the Scientific Method is reproducibility, but human perceptions are not reproducible. Instruments are calibrated; human senses are not.

That is why the human race has graduated to the more useful world of science and instrumentation. It's given us cell phones, pictures from Mars and beyond, robotic production and MRI, plus much, much more.

Ain't science wonderful?

 

[tw 2022]

The human sensory system is easily fooled. In the first place, it is subject to many biases, especially visual and auditory:

Yanny or Laurel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Constant spectrum melody - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The purpose of these illusions (above) is simply to inform people that their perception can be fooled.

The list of biases is quite long, and not at all confined to the senses, but pervade logic as well:

List of cognitive biases - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

However ... the auditory biases are quite strong:

Bias in Auditory Perception - Marjoleine Sloos, Denis McKeown, 2015

The reason for biases is efficiency; they are shortcuts:

Tomorrow Bio - Home

www.tomorrow.bio

Cognitive Shortcuts — Navigating Challenging Dialogue

So I have a question for you: Would you rather go for a leisurely walk on a flat paved path or would you rather bushwhack your way through new and uncharted territory? For me, the answer depends on the day. It depends on how much energy I have, how much time I have, and what I anticipate the rewa

ncdsolution.com

So you see, people don't hear with their ears ... they hear with their BRAIN. And the brain is busy using bias, whereas instruments are not. Humans are emotional; instruments are not. One of the pillars of the Scientific Method is reproducibility, but human perceptions are not reproducible. Instruments are calibrated; human senses are not.

That is why the human race has graduated to the more useful world of science and instrumentation. It's given us cell phones, pictures from Mars and beyond, robotic production and MRI, plus much, much more.

Ain't science wonderful?

Awesome video, I need to go back and hear all 3 without being prompted then do a prompted version again..very cool stuff..

 

[ta240]

Well that's not going to take off on this forum anytime soon .

Yeah, I'm thinking measuring things in Rsauditt's ears will be difficult. Is that speaker 12 ears or 14 ears tall?

 

[wwjokerk]

I just recently bought a pair of F226Be as replacement for my loved Magnat Signature 905s. I have to admit, the Magnat 905s are most probably one of the best speakers below 3000€ list price, but the Revels are simply better.

Well balanced sound stage, bass - mids - highs everything just perfect. I can really recommend to use the Revels with Hypex or Purifi Class D modules. Simply amazing.
I am using an Audiophonics MPA-S250NC Class D amp with a Ncore NC252MP Module with 2x250W at 4 Ohms.

I can really recommend David Dittmeier and his team at mdsound.de if you are looking for a German dealer. Delivery was carried out by a courier service on a wooden pallet.

I also talked to Sven Reiter from Hifi-Spezialist-Reiter. He also sells Revels speakers in Germany. As far as I know those two are the only Dealers in Germany.
Mr. Reiter would have delivered the speakers personally. But at MD Sound I could give it an intensive listening session and I also could directly compare them to my Magnat 905s using my own streamer/pre-amp and my amp.

The basic tonality of the Magnat 905s and the Revels is quite similar, the Magnat has a stronger bass (if required), but the Revels simply sound more resolving, clearer, more precise and give more details.

I am really happy that I spent that relatively high amount of money in the Revels.

 

[Jim Taylor]

I just recently bought a pair of F226Be as replacement for my loved Magnat Signature 905s. I have to admit, the Magnat 905s are most probably one of the best speakers below 3000€ list price, but the Revels are simply better.

Well balanced sound stage, bass - mids - highs everything just perfect. I can really recommend to use the Revels with Hypex or Purifi Class D modules. Simply amazing.
I am using an Audiophonics MPA-S250NC Class D amp with a Ncore NC252MP Module with 2x250W at 4 Ohms.

I can really recommend David Dittmeier and his team at mdsound.de if you are looking for a German dealer. Delivery was carried out by a courier service on a wooden pallet.

I also talked to Sven Reiter from Hifi-Spezialist-Reiter. He also sells Revels speakers in Germany. As far as I know those two are the only Dealers in Germany.
Mr. Reiter would have delivered the speakers personally. But at MD Sound I could give it an intensive listening session and I also could directly compare them to my Magnat 905s using my own streamer/pre-amp and my amp.

The basic tonality of the Magnat 905s and the Revels is quite similar, the Magnat has a stronger bass (if required), but the Revels simply sound more resolving, clearer, more precise and give more details.

I am really happy that I spent that relatively high amount of money in the Revels.

Thank you for your post! It's always good to hive a shout-out to good dealers. And ... Welcome to ASR!

 

[ahofer]

I just recently bought a pair of F226Be as replacement for my loved Magnat Signature 905s. I have to admit, the Magnat 905s are most probably one of the best speakers below 3000€ list price, but the Revels are simply better.

Well balanced sound stage, bass - mids - highs everything just perfect. I can really recommend to use the Revels with Hypex or Purifi Class D modules. Simply amazing.
I am using an Audiophonics MPA-S250NC Class D amp with a Ncore NC252MP Module with 2x250W at 4 Ohms.

I can really recommend David Dittmeier and his team at mdsound.de if you are looking for a German dealer. Delivery was carried out by a courier service on a wooden pallet.

I also talked to Sven Reiter from Hifi-Spezialist-Reiter. He also sells Revels speakers in Germany. As far as I know those two are the only Dealers in Germany.
Mr. Reiter would have delivered the speakers personally. But at MD Sound I could give it an intensive listening session and I also could directly compare them to my Magnat 905s using my own streamer/pre-amp and my amp.

The basic tonality of the Magnat 905s and the Revels is quite similar, the Magnat has a stronger bass (if required), but the Revels simply sound more resolving, clearer, more precise and give more details.

I am really happy that I spent that relatively high amount of money in the Revels.

I run the F228Be speakers with a March Audio 252mp amp, and have had a similar experience. It’s fun to know that the audiophile community would scoff at my amp and cables relative to the speakers.

 

[fbirch]

Apologies if my questions were already covered in this thread, but is there any preferred placement distance relative to the wall? I'm looking for something that can be placed relatively close to the wall, about 7-9 inch (18-23 cm) gap between the wall and the rear of the speaker. Also, I tend to listen at 65 - 70 db avg at my listening position, which is about 10 ft (3 m) away from the speakers. If I send them a full-freq-range input large enough to produce that sound level at that distance, can anyone confirm that they'd be well below any audible distortion on the low end?

 

[ahofer]

Apologies if my questions were already covered in this thread, but is there any preferred placement distance relative to the wall? I'm looking for something that can be placed relatively close to the wall, about 7-9 inch (18-23 cm) gap between the wall and the rear of the speaker. Also, I tend to listen at 65 - 70 db avg at my listening position, which is about 10 ft (3 m) away from the speakers. If I send them a full-freq-range input large enough to produce that sound level at that distance, can anyone confirm that they'd be well below any audible distortion on the low end?

There are some rules of thumb, but when it comes to room modes and nulls (which is what placement vs back wall can aggravate) there's no substitute for measurement.

This thread has some empirical suggestions

How To Empirically Determine Best Speaker Position?

Pretty much everything I've ever read over decades about speaker positioning for hi fi stereo amounts to some variation of: --Place the speakers such that the listening seat is at the apex of a triangle --Toe-in according to taste to improve imaging --Don't put too close to the corners, side...

www.audiosciencereview.com

in particular go here (direct to post #11):

How To Empirically Determine Best Speaker Position?

Pretty much everything I've ever read over decades about speaker positioning for hi fi stereo amounts to some variation of: --Place the speakers such that the listening seat is at the apex of a triangle --Toe-in according to taste to improve imaging --Don't put too close to the corners, side...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[testp]

Apologies if my questions were already covered in this thread, but is there any preferred placement distance relative to the wall? I'm looking for something that can be placed relatively close to the wall, about 7-9 inch (18-23 cm) gap between the wall and the rear of the speaker. Also, I tend to listen at 65 - 70 db avg at my listening position, which is about 10 ft (3 m) away from the speakers. If I send them a full-freq-range input large enough to produce that sound level at that distance, can anyone confirm that they'd be well below any audible distortion on the low end?

arent these front ported speakers? distance wise, considering f226 have good sensitivity, you should be fine. even monitor pair with low sensitivity (~83db) should do well at 3m.

 

[mtaz]

Crutchfield has the walnut on sale for $2700 ea. This is the lowest price I've seen in a while.

I'm so very tempted, but I really need to save for a few more months before spending that kind of money.

 

[Acerun]

I have mine about that close to the wall. I use the port plugs to avoid bloat.

 

[fbirch]

There are some rules of thumb, but when it comes to room modes and nulls (which is what placement vs back wall can aggravate) there's no substitute for measurement.

This thread has some empirical suggestions

How To Empirically Determine Best Speaker Position?

Pretty much everything I've ever read over decades about speaker positioning for hi fi stereo amounts to some variation of: --Place the speakers such that the listening seat is at the apex of a triangle --Toe-in according to taste to improve imaging --Don't put too close to the corners, side...

www.audiosciencereview.com

in particular go here (direct to post #11):

How To Empirically Determine Best Speaker Position?

Pretty much everything I've ever read over decades about speaker positioning for hi fi stereo amounts to some variation of: --Place the speakers such that the listening seat is at the apex of a triangle --Toe-in according to taste to improve imaging --Don't put too close to the corners, side...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Lots of interesting info there, thanks. My takeaway from all of it is that constructive/destructive interference, imaging, etc., is hard to predict for any given combo of room dimensions and speaker placement, furniture arrangement, etc. Use some general rules of thumb for initial speaker placement and listening position (which can be wildly different, depending on who supplies them), measure what you have and then start moving things around until you (hopefully) find some combo that sounds good and also satisfies practical constraints for the other uses of your room. Or maybe I missed something

 

[fbirch]

I interpret that to mean you found that placement to be excessively boomy without the plugs, which effectively just reduces low freq output. That's not what I was hoping to hear. Can you describe your room, speaker placement relative to the room and your listening position relative to speakers?

In my case, the room is about 27 feet X 18 feet. The speakers will go against the 27 foot wall, about 9 feet apart, each one about 9 feet from the nearest side wall. LP is a couch about 10 feet from the speakers, which itself is about 6 feet from the wall opposite the speakers. Room is untreated, but walls are wood frame+sheetrock, floating wood floors with sound deadening underlayment (under the wood, so it's quiet when you walk across it).

I have mine about that close to the wall. I use the port plugs to avoid bloat.

 

[fbirch]

One more question: For you guys who are powering these 226Be's with a non-AVR amp and also using a sub, what are you using to achieve the crossover between the 226 and the sub?

 

[fbirch]

Crutchfield has the walnut on sale for $2700 ea. This is the lowest price I've seen in a while.

I'm so very tempted, but I really need to save for a few more months before spending that kind of money.

That's a tempting price indeed. If I knew I could make them work, I'd pull the trigger. Unfortunately, there are no Revel dealers near me with any stock of this model to even audition in a showroom. I know CF has a generous return policy, but it would be a real pain to rebox and return big heavy speakers like this. I read a rumor in one of the threads here that Revel was set to release an update to this speaker later this year. No idea if that's true, but if so, there might be some big discounts on these right near the end.