Revel M16 Speaker Review

[FlyingFreak]

While I would definitely prefer live comparisons, I'm not sure I can discount the internet comparisons either. Unless they're going out of their way to deceive the audience, the sounds seem clearly different. I'm also taking into account the well known reviewers on youtube and their input. Maybe in real life it wouldn't be noticeable to a novice such as myself though.... so who knows

I recommend getting a aiyima to make some tests by yourself in your own environment. In my room, I can’t figure which is the cheap amp and which is the fancy one. I was disappointed, I wanted to like the fancy one better.
Aiyima are small too, you could even try one for each speakers.

 

[MarkS]

Unless they're going out of their way to deceive the audience

A scam on the internet! Unthinkable!!!

I'm also taking into account the well known reviewers on youtube and their input.

Are these the same ones who hear dramatic differences in cases where it is absolutely physically impossible (eg power cords)?

Maybe in real life it wouldn't be noticeable to a novice such as myself though.... so who knows

Even the most experienced listeners strain to hear differences in electronics under blind conditions, and most often cannot, especially when listening over speakers (not headphones).

 

[dominikz]

While I would definitely prefer live comparisons, I'm not sure I can discount the internet comparisons either. Unless they're going out of their way to deceive the audience, the sounds seem clearly different. I'm also taking into account the well known reviewers on youtube and their input. Maybe in real life it wouldn't be noticeable to a novice such as myself though.... so who knows

Could you perhaps link to the comparison you are referencing?

Assuming there is no overload/clipping/very excessive distortion on either device, the usual suspect when a difference is heard between electronics is level matching, or specifically whether it is precise enough. It is said that as little as 0,1-0,2 dB level difference can sometime skew listening tests.

Apart from that, some amplifiers have large output impedance, which can indeed cause significant deviations in their frequency response when driving a real (complex) load like a loudspeaker, and this could of course be audible. Maybe the explanation from this post and this post will be helpful. These deviations are typically less than 1dB and can be removed with EQ.

However, even relatively cheap amps (e.g. have a look at Hypex, ICEPower or Infineon...) today can have very low output impedance, which means their frequency response will be completely unaffected by the load - in which case they should sound the same as other amps with low output impedance.

 

[chang]

I recommend getting a aiyima to make some tests by yourself in your own environment. In my room, I can’t figure which is the cheap amp and which is the fancy one. I was disappointed, I wanted to like the fancy one better.
Aiyima are small too, you could even try one for each speakers.

That's not the worst idea. Would love for that to be the case.

What were you comparing it to?

 

[chang]

A scam on the internet! Unthinkable!!!

Are these the same ones who hear dramatic differences in cases where it is absolutely physically impossible (eg power cords)?

Even the most experienced listeners strain to hear differences in electronics under blind conditions, and most often cannot, especially when listening over speakers (not headphones).

Haha, I get what you're saying.... I wouldn't lump them all together though.

So what would you recommend to drive Revel M16's? Is there a minimum threshold needed in an amp?

 

[chang]

Could you perhaps link to the comparison you are referencing?

Assuming there is no overload/clipping/very excessive distortion on either device, the usual suspect when a difference is heard between electronics is level matching, or specifically whether it is precise enough. It is said that as little as 0,1-0,2 dB level difference can sometime skew listening tests.

Apart from that, some amplifiers have large output impedance, which can indeed cause significant deviations in their frequency response when driving a real (complex) load like a loudspeaker, and this could of course be audible. Maybe the explanation from this post and this post will be helpful. These deviations are typically less than 1dB and can be removed with EQ.

However, even relatively cheap amps (e.g. have a look at Hypex, ICEPower or Infineon...) today can have very low output impedance, which means their frequency response will be completely unaffected by the load - in which case they should sound the same as other amps with low output impedance.

There are a few, but the one in particular is E Project on youtube.

Thanks for the explanation. Definitely not opposed to going the inexpensive route.

You listed chips inside the amp, right?

 

[dominikz]

So what would you recommend to drive Revel M16's? Is there a minimum threshold needed in an amp?

IMHO your choice should mainly depend on:

• Power requirements; i.e. what kind of SPL you need to be able to reach; which should in turn be dictated by your listening distance and the listening level you are comfortable with. This is something that can be calculated, assuming you can measure your preferred SPL.
• What kind of sources you plan on using; i.e. what kind of inputs you need on the amp (analogue, phono, optical, coax, HDMI, bluetooth, various cast solution etc...).
  I'm personally a fan of all-in-one solutions
• Do you already have DSP / PEQ capability or would your amp need to have this built-in?

You listed chips inside the amp, right?

Yes, that's correct - these are some of the well-measuring chip amps available today, which are built into many commercial amplifiers.

 

[chang]

IMHO your choice should mainly depend on:

• Power requirements; i.e. what kind of SPL you need to be able to reach; which should in turn be dictated by your listening distance and the listening level you are comfortable with. This is something that can be calculated, assuming you can measure your preferred SPL.
• What kind of sources you plan on using; i.e. what kind of inputs you need on the amp (analogue, phono, optical, coax, HDMI, bluetooth, various cast solution etc...).
  I'm personally a fan of all-in-one solutions
• Do you already have DSP / PEQ capability or would your amp need to have this built-in?

Yes, that's correct - these are some of the well-measuring chip amps available today, which are built into many commercial amplifiers.

Thank you for this... I've always wondered if there were measurable variables to help narrow down amps. I'll measure the dB's later today, but for now this is what I got...

1. I'll be sitting roughly between 13-14 ft away. I enjoy low to medium volume mostly, with the occasional "crank it up" depending on where I am in the house / mood (I'll figure out the db of those)
2. I would say the only inputs not needed are bluetooth, wifi, and phono. I'm sensitive to emf's currently, so finding a unit with bluetooth or wifi is a priority.
3. I have the minidspHD, which has volume control, so that should open up options (ie power amps)

The Revels are 86dB and recommended power is 50-120W

Ok, Most of those seem to be out of my price range. I was hoping to stay around 300-400, or under, but can adjust with recommendations... Also don't mind buying used.

 

[RichB]

Thank you for this... I've always wondered if there were measurable variables to help narrow down amps. I'll measure the dB's later today, but for now this is what I got...

1. I'll be sitting roughly between 13-14 ft away. I enjoy low to medium volume mostly, with the occasional "crank it up" depending on where I am in the house / mood (I'll figure out the db of those)
2. I would say the only inputs not needed are bluetooth, wifi, and phono. I'm sensitive to emf's currently, so finding a unit with bluetooth or wifi is a priority.
3. I have the minidspHD, which has volume control, so that should open up options (ie power amps)

The Revels are 86dB and recommended power is 50-120W

Ok, Most of those seem to be out of my price range. I was hoping to stay around 300-400, or under, but can adjust with recommendations... Also don't mind buying used.

If you are comfortable with a sound meter, you can measure the SPL your speakers power. I can post the methodology later.

There have more power than you need but you may want to check out Buckeye amps:

Buckeye Amps: New US based Hypex multichannel amplifier builder, line-up announcement!

Hypex NC502MP specs: - 450w @ 2ohm (per channel, peak) - 500w @ 4ohm (per channel, peak) - 350w @ 8ohm (per channel, peak) Hypex NC252MP specs: - 180w @ 2ohm (per channel, peak) - 250w @ 4ohm (per channel, peak) - 150w @ 8ohm (per channel, peak) PRICING: XL 8ch Aluminum Case (17"x13"x6")...

www.audiosciencereview.com

- Rich

 

[dominikz]

Thank you for this... I've always wondered if there were measurable variables to help narrow down amps. I'll measure the dB's later today, but for now this is what I got...

1. I'll be sitting roughly between 13-14 ft away. I enjoy low to medium volume mostly, with the occasional "crank it up" depending on where I am in the house / mood (I'll figure out the db of those)
2. I would say the only inputs not needed are bluetooth, wifi, and phono. I'm sensitive to emf's currently, so finding a unit with bluetooth or wifi is a priority.
3. I have the minidspHD, which has volume control, so that should open up options (ie power amps)

The Revels are 86dB and recommended power is 50-120W

Ok, Most of those seem to be out of my price range. I was hoping to stay around 300-400, or under, but can adjust with recommendations... Also don't mind buying used.

I'm not sure I'll be able to help much with specific recommendation for commercial amplifier models, sorry, as I don't really have a good overview of the market.

However, IMHO if you're satisfied to use the miniDSP 2x4 HD as a combined DSP / preamp / DAC you could probably use basically any power amp, as long as it has sufficient power to satisfy your SPL / loudness requirements.

Aiyima A07 seems to be the go-to budget recommendation around here (though I personally have no experience with it), which is IMO understandable given the extremely low price, solid distortion/noise performance and high power. However note that it does exhibit some load dependence due to output impedance, as illustrated by @pma, e.g. here and here. And of course we have no information on longer term reliability.

In general I'd probably go with a power amp from some brand where I can easily and reliably get support in case of issues.

If it is any help, I drive my Revel M16 with a Denon Ceol RCD-N9 stereo receiver/integrated amplifier (measured here - not impressive objective performance in any way, but sounds just fine to me ), and use miniDSP OpenDRC-DI for PEQ on one of the inputs.
The 75W @1% THD+N @4Ohm of the Denon is sufficient to reach IMO pretty loud levels (in the context of an apartment building) at my 7,5' listening distance, in a 205 square feet room. Given that you listen from double that distance, I'd probably look at something in the 100-200W range. It is probably better to have a power reserve that you don't use, than not to have enough.

Good luck in your search!

 

[chang]

I'm not sure I'll be able to help much with specific recommendation for commercial amplifier models, sorry, as I don't really have a good overview of the market.

However, IMHO if you're satisfied to use the miniDSP 2x4 HD as a combined DSP / preamp / DAC you could probably use basically any power amp, as long as it has sufficient power to satisfy your SPL / loudness requirements.

Aiyima A07 seems to be the go-to budget recommendation around here (though I personally have no experience with it), which is IMO understandable given the extremely low price, solid distortion/noise performance and high power. However note that it does exhibit some load dependence due to output impedance, as illustrated by @pma, e.g. here and here. And of course we have no information on longer term reliability.

In general I'd probably go with a power amp from some brand where I can easily and reliably get support in case of issues.

If it is any help, I drive my Revel M16 with a Denon Ceol RCD-N9 stereo receiver/integrated amplifier (measured here - not impressive objective performance in any way, but sounds just fine to me ), and use miniDSP OpenDRC-DI for PEQ on one of the inputs.
The 75W @1% THD+N @4Ohm of the Denon is sufficient to reach IMO pretty loud levels (in the context of an apartment building) at my 7,5' listening distance, in a 205 square feet room. Given that you listen from double that distance, I'd probably look at something in the 100-200W range. It is probably better to have a power reserve that you don't use, than not to have enough.

Good luck in your search!

Really appreciate the advice Nice hearing feedback from someone who owns the speakers.

I think the power amp is my best avenue since bluetooth seems to be in everything these days.

Are you getting all 75W with the Revel's being 6 ohm?

What are your thoughts on A/B vs. D? Think one is a better match for the M16's?

 

[chang]

If you are comfortable with a sound meter, you can measure the SPL your speakers power. I can post the methodology later.

There have more power than you need but you may want to check out Buckeye amps:

Buckeye Amps: New US based Hypex multichannel amplifier builder, line-up announcement!

Hypex NC502MP specs: - 450w @ 2ohm (per channel, peak) - 500w @ 4ohm (per channel, peak) - 350w @ 8ohm (per channel, peak) Hypex NC252MP specs: - 180w @ 2ohm (per channel, peak) - 250w @ 4ohm (per channel, peak) - 150w @ 8ohm (per channel, peak) PRICING: XL 8ch Aluminum Case (17"x13"x6")...

www.audiosciencereview.com

- Rich

Thank you. I was looking at this, however it's a bit outside my price range. Any recommendations on something comparable at a lower price point?

 

[dominikz]

Are you getting all 75W with the Revel's being 6 ohm?

Well no speaker is really a pure resistive load, and their impedance anyways varies quite wildly with frequency. The M16 dips down to 4Ohm in certain frequency ranges, as you can see in post #1:

Also, how much power you use will depend a lot on the content you are playing, and the level you play it at.
What I can say I never need to push the amp close to maximum volume to reach satisfactory SPL, and I actually rarely ever go above 60% on the dial.

What are your thoughts on A/B vs. D? Think one is a better match for the M16's?

Both/either can be great or bad, depending on how well engineered the whole amp is.
There are state-of-the-art performing amplifiers of both types - and I sincerely doubt people could tell a difference between such amps in a well-controlled listening test.
All else being equal (though it usually never is) I'd personally choose class D due to better efficiency / less heat dissipation.

 

[chang]

Well no speaker is really a pure resistive load, and their impedance anyways varies quite wildly with frequency. The M16 dips down to 4Ohm in certain frequency ranges, as you can see in post #1:

Also, how much power you use will depend a lot on the content you are playing, and the level you play it at.
What I can say I never need to push the amp close to maximum volume to reach satisfactory SPL, and I actually rarely ever go above 60% on the dial.


Both/either can be great or bad, depending on how well engineered the whole amp is.
There are state-of-the-art performing amplifiers of both types - and I sincerely doubt people could tell a difference between such amps in a well-controlled listening test.
All else being equal (though it usually never is) I'd personally choose class D due to better efficiency / less heat dissipation.

Appreciate it. Still so much to learn.

Glad you said that (regarding rarely having to push the amp for desired spl), since I'm exhausted trying to search for an adequate power amp b/t 100-200W in my price range. Think I might go with the A07 for now... unless you have something in mind?

Yeah, I know there's much talk about sound signatures, just don't know if I would notice enough of a difference

 

[Koeitje]

Appreciate it. Still so much to learn.

Glad you said that (regarding rarely having to push the amp for desired spl), since I'm exhausted trying to search for an adequate power amp b/t 100-200W in my price range. Think I might go with the A07 for now... unless you have something in mind?

Yeah, I know there's much talk about sound signatures, just don't know if I would notice enough of a difference

If your amplifier has a sound signature its not a good amplifier. Only power really matters in most cases.

 

[chang]

If your amplifier has a sound signature its not a good amplifier. Only power really matters in most cases.

Guess I was mistaking it for ones with built-in dacs

 

[MarkS]

DACs also don't have sound signatures ...

 

[chang]

DACs also don't have sound signatures ...

Haha really? Just can't get this right

 

[FlyingFreak]

@chang
I didn't understood wether the unit needed bluetooth and/or wifi or needed not to have those.

If not, starting with Aiyima 07 and seeing if that is good enough is great. If you want bluetooth, I found a 08 on sale last week and would recommend that to start with. My bet is you will be very happy with your system for the time being. You could always try upgrading your amp when you have a larger budget for it and see then if your sound is better. Otherwise buy one of those and a more powerful cleaner one now and test drive them in your home. Personally, I found trying things at home way more enjoyable (I am listening to my fancy new speakers now) and easier that trying to figure out my desire spl (which would require me buying extra stuffs I dont want).
I ended keeping the aiyima and I bet you might too if you are not cranking up the volume. In my place at the volume I am listening to, it does everything more powerful amp do. Or my earring has become terrible... either way, got more money to spend on holidays.
Cheers!

Edit typo

 

[chang]

@chang
I didn't understood wether the unit needed bluetooth and/or wifi or needed not to have those.

If not, starting with Aiyima 07 and seeing if that is good enough is great. If you want bluetooth, I found a 08 on sale last week and would recommend that to start with. My bet is you will be very happy with your system for the time being. You could always try upgrading your amp when you have a larger budget for it and see then if your sound is better. Otherwise buy one of those and a more powerful cleaner one now and test drive them in your home. Personally, I found trying things at home way more enjoyable (I am listening to my fancy new speakers now) and easier that trying to figure out my desire spl (which would require me buying extra stuffs I dont want).
I ended keeping the aiyima and I bet you might too if you are not cranking up the volume. In my place at the volume I am listening to, it does everything more powerful amp do. Or my earring has become terrible... either way, got more money to spend on holidays.
Cheers!

Edit typo

Looking for something without BT or wifi.

Agreed. Think I'm leaning towards the A07 for those exact reasons. I really like the idea of being able to upgrade the op-amps and power supply to modify the amp. Haha, never hurts having some extra cash for the holidays.

You mentioned using one for each speaker in your earlier post... were you referring to using the A07 as a mono amp?