Revel M106 vs. stock Linn Katan

[Tangband]

Perhaps this is a bit off topic, but I hope OP doesn't mind. I have a pair of Majik 109s that I feel don't perform that well. Without eq I find them to be too polite, without any heft to their sound.

I use the Majiks with a Denon X4500 and an Elac SUB 2030. Without the sub they sound anemic. I've heard the Majiks ”aktiv” with expensive Akurate amps. Still far from impressed with the bass output.

The Elac takes care of the lacking bass output and integrates well with the Majiks due to Audyssey. I've previously limited Audyssey to 300hz. Now I've tried to mitigate the Majik's massive bbc dip by extending the Audyssey range to 6khz, and first impressions are that the speakers became more enganging and that the vocals have more ”bite” to them.

Has anyone else tried to cancel out bbc dips with room correction software? If so, what were the results?

It sounds that you might not have set up your majik109 correctly
Here is how to do it :

Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune -

 

[Tangband]

Perhaps this is a bit off topic, but I hope OP doesn't mind. I have a pair of Majik 109s that I feel don't perform that well. Without eq I find them to be too polite, without any heft to their sound.

I use the Majiks with a Denon X4500 and an Elac SUB 2030. Without the sub they sound anemic. I've heard the Majiks ”aktiv” with expensive Akurate amps. Still far from impressed with the bass output.

The Elac takes care of the lacking bass output and integrates well with the Majiks due to Audyssey. I've previously limited Audyssey to 300hz. Now I've tried to mitigate the Majik's massive bbc dip by extending the Audyssey range to 6khz, and first impressions are that the speakers became more enganging and that the vocals have more ”bite” to them.

Has anyone else tried to cancel out bbc dips with room correction software? If so, what were the results?

I have tried ( not with Majik109 ) and the result is not good. You cant correct anything from the listeningposition thats higher than about 200 Hz, because the ear and microphone at listeningposition dont work in the same way for freq. higher than 200 Hz.
Any dsp correction at the range 200-20000 Hz must be done with only one speaker at the time, with the mic about 1 meter from the loudspeaker, on axis with the tweeter. This correction can only be done in a good way with speakers that have a good directivity.

However, I would advice you to start with the right loudspeaker installation before even thinking about room corrections.

 

[NiagaraPete]

Perhaps this is a bit off topic, but I hope OP doesn't mind. I have a pair of Majik 109s that I feel don't perform that well. Without eq I find them to be too polite, without any heft to their sound.

I use the Majiks with a Denon X4500 and an Elac SUB 2030. Without the sub they sound anemic. I've heard the Majiks ”aktiv” with expensive Akurate amps. Still far from impressed with the bass output.

The Elac takes care of the lacking bass output and integrates well with the Majiks due to Audyssey. I've previously limited Audyssey to 300hz. Now I've tried to mitigate the Majik's massive bbc dip by extending the Audyssey range to 6khz, and first impressions are that the speakers became more enganging and that the vocals have more ”bite” to them.

Has anyone else tried to cancel out bbc dips with room correction software? If so, what were the results?

I kind of wish you'd have started a new thread for this. I don't think the 109 has a BBC dip but I've not seen actual measurements. It however only has a single 6" bass unit so I don't think you're ever going to get great lows from it without a sub. Sadly Linn stopped making subs, which is maybe a good thing, but not for this speaker, because it does need one.

 

[mgood]

From tweaks I've done in the past, it just pushes the presence band forward a little (in the very non-flat LS5/8 and smaller 5/9, the dip was upper mids rather than lower top and put there for near-field listening comfort I gather). In-room, a shallow crossover dip is the LEAST of the problems to be honest. With my so-called 'corrected hearing now, I'm not aware of it at all, but of course the mics in the 'aids' may be not 'good enough' to justify any form of subjective comment.

Thanks. I guess pushing the prescence band forward is kind of what I'm looking for.

 

[mgood]

It sounds that you might not have set up your majik109 correctly
Here is how to do it :

Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune -

Well, I've owned different Linn products since 2007 including the Majik 140. I'm familiar with ”tune dem”. Did some comparisons (in pure direct mode) with a pair of cheaper System Audio speakers that I have in my office system, connected them to the X4500 and boy did the music come alive. The SAs are less refined, though. A smiliar effect was achieved by increasing the Audyssey frequency range to 6 khz with the Majiks, but I haven't ABX:ed the different Audyssey settings.

 

[mgood]

I kind of wish you'd have started a new thread for this. I don't think the 109 has a BBC dip but I've not seen actual measurements. It however only has a single 6" bass unit so I don't think you're ever going to get great lows from it without a sub. Sadly Linn stopped making subs, which is maybe a good thing, but not for this speaker, because it does need one.

The 109s do indeed have a huge BBC dip. Check out the Stereophile measurements. Since this thread compares ”flat speakers” with Linn speakers, I thought my post would further the discussion.

The Majiks have a 5.25 inch mid/sub driver, I think. It's not the bass output that is the problem, rather that they sound distant and unexciting.

 

[dalejoel]

This thread is really fascinating to me. Three years ago I replaced my linn speaker system (2xNinka, 2x Kataan, 1xTrikan) with an all Revel system (2x F206, 2xM106, 1xC205). And while I think the Revels are definitely superior when I'm watching tv and movies... when it comes to music I have found a set of songs I just don't like as much as I used to and after 3 years it's remained that way. I find myself listening to the speakers vs the music. With the Linns I was just listening to the music. The Revels can sometimes be distractingly harsh. And I've been wondering what my deal was.

To be fair - some of my music on the Revels sounds fantastic. But when people say things like "forward" I never really knew what that meant until the switch and I suddenly felt like the vocals in my music were sitting three feet closer to me than the rest of the band. And I'll hear the crunchy edge to stuff that I don't think I'm meant to hear. Or something that used to sound like a person signing in a bar now sounds like a microphone being sung into. Like I can hear the microphone...

I have noticed the M106 are less harsh than the F206. And I've also played around with placement and recalibrated. And that seems to help.

I just bought an Anthem MRX 540 to replace my aging Pioneer SC-35. So I'm curious what ARC will do.

Anyway - that's a lot of subjective metaphorical language but it's been in my brain for the past 3 years. When the song sounds good on the Revels it sounds really good. But more often than I wish were true, I miss some of the emotional impact of songs I know I love.

 

[Punchrulle]

VERY INTERESTING. I had a pair of the m126be's (m106 successor), and I also found that I preferred the sound from my B&W 802D's floorstanders, which ALSO have a BBC dip around 2-4khz. There's something about that dip that has merit, although there are a lot of Revel revelers who will overinterpret Harman research and dismiss it.

A dip in around 3-4 kHz can make a speaker sound less like a speaker. This is according to a very competent swedish loudspeaker maker who allso know a thing or two about how our hearing works. He is a walking knowledge base in sound and acoustics. I think he even is a Dr. in the field of human hearing and acoustics. No BS, just pure scientific facts comes from that dude.

 

[thewas]

A dip in around 3-4 kHz can make a speaker sound less like a speaker. This is according to a very competent swedish loudspeaker maker who allso know a thing or two about how our hearing works. He is a walking knowledge base in sound and acoustics. I think he even is a Dr. in the field of human hearing and acoustics. No BS, just pure scientific facts comes from that dude.

Do you have a source of to that and if not at least his name or the loudspeaker brand?

 

[Punchrulle]

Do you have a source of to that and if not at least his name or the loudspeaker brand?

I got it from somewhere on swedish hifi forum or if it was an article published by LTS (swedish sound technical society), could have been both. Can’t quite remember if it was either of those or both.
The loudspeaker maker is Ingvar Öhman and his speaker brand is called Ino audio.
One of the few in this bussiness that doesnt f**k around with bs statements.

If and when I find/remember the source I’ll supply it

 

[LightninBoy]

This thread is really fascinating to me. Three years ago I replaced my linn speaker system (2xNinka, 2x Kataan, 1xTrikan) with an all Revel system (2x F206, 2xM106, 1xC205). And while I think the Revels are definitely superior when I'm watching tv and movies... when it comes to music I have found a set of songs I just don't like as much as I used to and after 3 years it's remained that way. I find myself listening to the speakers vs the music. With the Linns I was just listening to the music. The Revels can sometimes be distractingly harsh. And I've been wondering what my deal was.

To be fair - some of my music on the Revels sounds fantastic. But when people say things like "forward" I never really knew what that meant until the switch and I suddenly felt like the vocals in my music were sitting three feet closer to me than the rest of the band. And I'll hear the crunchy edge to stuff that I don't think I'm meant to hear. Or something that used to sound like a person signing in a bar now sounds like a microphone being sung into. Like I can hear the microphone...

I have noticed the M106 are less harsh than the F206. And I've also played around with placement and recalibrated. And that seems to help.

I just bought an Anthem MRX 540 to replace my aging Pioneer SC-35. So I'm curious what ARC will do.

Anyway - that's a lot of subjective metaphorical language but it's been in my brain for the past 3 years. When the song sounds good on the Revels it sounds really good. But more often than I wish were true, I miss some of the emotional impact of songs I know I love.

Just curious, is this in a squarish room, or some other room features that may emphasize a 2 to 4k region (small, sparsely furnished, large flat surfaces, glass surfaces, speakers close to wall, etc)?

BTW, I think you did an excellent job explaining what you were hearing.

 

[thewas]

I got it from somewhere on swedish hifi forum or if it was an article published by LTS (swedish sound technical society), could have been both. Can’t quite remember if it was either of those or both.
The loudspeaker maker is Ingvar Öhman and his speaker brand is called Ino audio.
One of the few in this bussiness that doesnt f**k around with bs statements.

If and when I find/remember the source I’ll supply it

From what I read he is "Most known for his breath-taking world wide commercially available Guru QM-10" which is a typical 2-way with its related idiosyncrasies and problems, so I wouldn't put too much weight on such a statement. In the end also it would mean that either most sound engineers also use monitors with similar idiosyncrasies or they create recordings that need to be manipulated by the final consumer to sound more natural.

 

[Punchrulle]

From what I read he is "Most known for his breath-taking world wide commercially available Guru QM-10" which is a typical 2-way with its related idiosyncrasies and problems, so I wouldn't put too much weight on such a statement. In the end also it would mean that either most sound engineers also use monitors with similar idiosyncrasies or they create recordings that need to be manipulated by the final consumer to sound more natural.

Off course, everything is a compromise one way or another.
As far as I know he is not part of the Guru ”gang”, he just designed speakers for them. Those words I don’t think ever came from his mouth. Marketing is not his thing.
I wouldnt put to much weight on that conclusion of yours.
Ingvar Öhman is a very knowledgable person in the field of human hearing and aucoustics. I never said his speakers where perfect, neither would he claim such thing.

By the way I think you should listen to a pair of Guru qm-10 if you ever get the chance to hear them. You might (and probably would) be possitively supprised.

 

[thewas]

Off course, everything is a compromise one way or another.
As far as I know he is not part of the Guru ”gang”, he just designed speakers for them. Those words I don’t think ever came from his mouth. Marketing is not his thing.
I wouldnt put to much weight on that conclusion of yours.
Ingvar Öhman is a very knowledgable person in the field of human hearing and aucoustics. I never said his speakers where perfect, neither would he claim such thing.

By the way I think you should listen to a pair of Guru qm-10 if you ever get the chance to hear them. You might (and probably would) be possitively supprised.

Well, you made a quite bold statement about him and his quote but till now you haven't shown some really competent loudspeakers or acoustic research from him so I just googled his name and mainly that Guru QM came up, if you have better references please post them here.

By the way the legend of the presence dip (also often called BBC dip) has been debunked by some serious research, see for example

Which speakers are the Classical Music Pros using?

By the way the 8xx D4 series is about to be released, will be interesting to see in which direction its measurement will evolve as for example the D3 started a slight return trend to neutrality compared to the D2 and D.

www.audiosciencereview.com

Which speakers are the Classical Music Pros using?

By the way the 8xx D4 series is about to be released, will be interesting to see in which direction its measurement will evolve as for example the D3 started a slight return trend to neutrality compared to the D2 and D.

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Punchrulle]

Well, you made a quite bold statement about him and his quote but till now you haven't shown some really competent loudspeakers or acoustic research from him so I just googled his name and mainly that Guru QM came up, if you have better references please post them here.

By the way the legend of the presence dip (also often called BBC dip) has been debunked by some serious research, see for example

Which speakers are the Classical Music Pros using?

By the way the 8xx D4 series is about to be released, will be interesting to see in which direction its measurement will evolve as for example the D3 started a slight return trend to neutrality compared to the D2 and D.

www.audiosciencereview.com

Which speakers are the Classical Music Pros using?

By the way the 8xx D4 series is about to be released, will be interesting to see in which direction its measurement will evolve as for example the D3 started a slight return trend to neutrality compared to the D2 and D.

www.audiosciencereview.com

You are most certenly right. Shouldnt have written any of that without beeing able to provide a link.
But it doesnt make your comments less irrelevant or less false for that matter. He is probably more widely known for his research in the field of human hearing then as a speaker maker.

I don’t have the time to read up on the links you provided at the moment. You are probably right about what you state.

 

[NiagaraPete]

Having been a Linn owner for years in my opinion they suck, until you go Aktiv which in Linn speak is active.

 

[thewas]

But it doesnt make your comments less irrelevant or less false for that matter. He is probably more widely known for his research in the field of human hearing then as a speaker maker.

Floyd Toole from which those short links I posted above is one of the most important researchers in the field of audio reproduction, so I strongly recommend you taking few minutes to read them and even better in the long run his book if you are seriously interested in that hobby.

 

[Punchrulle]

I looked at the links briefly.
As far as I could see it was more of a conversation then ”debunked by some serious research”.
I’ll continue the reading tomorrow. Thanks for the links by the way.

 

[thewas]

I looked at the links briefly.
As far as I could see it was more of a conversation then ”debunked by some serious research”.
I’ll continue the reading tomorrow. Thanks for the links by the way.

His forum quotes are based on his fundamental research which is summarised in his 490 pages book which as said is highly recommended.

Sound Reproduction

Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms, Third Edition explains the physical and perceptual processes that are involved in sound reproduction and demonstrates how to use the processes to create high-quality listening experiences in stereo and multichannel...

books.google.com

 

[Punchrulle]

His forum quotes are based on his fundamental research which is summarised in his 490 pages book which as said is highly recommended.

Sound Reproduction

Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms, Third Edition explains the physical and perceptual processes that are involved in sound reproduction and demonstrates how to use the processes to create high-quality listening experiences in stereo and multichannel...

books.google.com

I know who Toole is. It just was not clear that what he descussed in that thread was actually part of his research or if it was just his ”common sense” who was arguing. Since he didnt state it was from his research.
But maybe I need to read the whole thread and not just the pages you linked to.