Revel F35 Speaker Review

[igufi]

Note that the above is not an everyday issue as I use Dirac for room EQ for my system when it is normally being used.

Do you use the VST-plugin or a hardware based solution for Dirac?

 

[georgeT]

Not to brag, but I did comment in the Q100 thread that they shouldn't be used without a HP filter.



OK I'm bragging.

 

[AudioJester]

The problem solved by EQ in the bass shows how little it takes to throw things off, and how simple it is to fix.

So will commpetent speakers be like non-brocken dacs? With eq and dsp they can all do the job and be hard to differetiate?

 

[Webninja]

@amirm

Any chance you’ll be testing a Performa3 or maybe a PerformaBE? The costs go up compared to the Concerta2s but I wonder what you get aside from deeper bass as you move up the line.

The BEs are getting great reviews, but they are in the same range as used Salon2!!

I have a feeling that the Concerta2s are going to be the best bang for your buck in the Revel line up.

 

[Juhazi]

Peculiar low end response... Hmm, perhaps it comes from NFS nearfield mic - rear port signal doesn't sum like it's supposed to. Tower construction makes this problem extreme?

Almost zero directivity with peaks around 1kHz - cabinet edge diffraction? Strange that they are so high in spl at extreme vertical angles too. Or is it port leakage again! Port output measurements, please! Handheld mic is ok for that!

 

[LTig]

That’s why I always use room correction when reviewing speakers.

... as does Sound & Recording. AFAIK they eq also above Schröder.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Very interesting how disappointing sound of F35 and R3 were without EQ, Room effects seem so dominate over spinoramas,
I have done extensive in room measurements of Revel F36 and the results are very variable with positions.
In short the F36 are better than my existing speaker but some locations gives a massive 10-20db boost in low bass.

Prepare for information over load

First my room I can listen near field-6-8feet- in the front of the 20 feet long room, or far field closer to the backwall (12.14 feet).

Speaker element close .

Comparing existing speakers and Revel F36 at speaker position for existing speakers and far field listening position in sofa at back wall. The resaon for trying F36 is to get more bass and fullness to the sound, i certainly has more bass in the existing speaker/listening position. A bit overwhelming, and far more than spinorama suggest.

So lets continue with F36 far field( listener on sofa) and vary distance to front wall from 1.5 ft to 5ft,. About 4 ft seem best, but s massive room node boost at 32Hz

Full spectrum

But what happens if I keep the speakers 116cm form front wall, and then vary mic position s few inches?
Dramatic effect...one position almost removes the 90Hz cancellation

Compared with Harman I get much more bass sitting close to the back wall, (both loose some clarity and 3d perspective that I get mooving away from wall ,and to near field)

Trinnov room correction can even out the bass, but not remove the 90Hz dip of course.

Smoothing out with 1/6

Trinnov corrects bass and the valley at 300-600 Hz

A summary so far , NO EQ or room correction, Bass boost at 32Hz node can be reduced by plugging the port.
The low bass extension from the port does not show in 1m and an-echoic data but is there in real room, my room at least at this positions

And now some near field listening. Speaker baffle 2ft 2inches from back wall. mic Mic 7-8ft form front wall.

Comparison far end near field listening, no eq.

Then some Trinnov correction near field and psycoacoustic smoothing. Black line = uncorrected, Blue= flat target Red=bass lift/sloped eq.

After some more iterations I found an OK position with F36 speakers front baffle 2'2" from front wall and listening 6ft from back wall in my 20ft room(13 ft wide)
Left, right and both speakers.No EQ psycoacoustic smoothing

Just a comparison of 1/6 smoothing and Psycoacoustic smoothing for reference, Psyco make things look better.

one final summary

NOW it is time to listen to some music, after 5days work

Added effect of bass port open and closed on F36

 

[direstraitsfan98]

@Balle Clorin amazing post thank, thank you. I wish more people did measurements like this to show how the speaker will perform in real life in a typical listening environment.

 

[Sal1950]

Fit and finish is superb. You could easily pretend to your friends you paid multiples of its cost.

I do wish manufacturers would offer the speakers in the least expensive fit & finish it is possible to make them in. I'd like to be able to purchase SOTA performance without paying for furniture grade looks. Back in 1978 I was able to buy my new La Scala's unfinished in raw marine grade plywood and then I finished them myself. You can't do anything like that with them anymore either.
Same goes for cars. Back in the day you could order a new base model Chevy with the highest hp rated bigblock, 4 sp, 410 rear end etc, and if you were really serious you could check the boxes for things like heater and radio delete to save both money and weight. Today if you walk into Chevy and want the top performing engine, etc; package on a Camero you also have to get the very top of the line interior, wheels, appearance packages too.
The get into your wallet coming and going.

 

[renaudrenaud]

I do wish manufacturers would offer the speakers in the least expensive fit & finish it is possible to make them in. I'd like to be able to purchase SOTA performance without paying for furniture grade looks. Back in 1978 I was able to buy my new La Scala's unfinished in raw marine grade plywood and then I finished them myself. You can't do anything like that with them anymore either.
Same goes for cars. Back in the day you could order a new base model Chevy with the highest hp rated bigblock, 4 sp, 410 rear end etc, and if you were really serious you could check the boxes for things like heater and radio delete to save both money and weight. Today if you walk into Chevy and want the top performing engine, etc; package on a Camero you also have to get the very top of the line interior, wheels, appearance packages too.
The get into your wallet coming and going.

So you have to buy a bike. There is no things like line interior, heater and radio. Less pollution. Better health.
Well, I know, I know...

 

[Juhazi]

Balle, why on earth do you sit so close to back wall? Your postitioning is against all instructions! You get maximum of 30Hz mode and lots of cancellations in midrange! Ratio of direct/vs reflected sound is close to 0%.

Simply moving your seat to 345 yellow mark (for listening), would give you totally different and better sound without any eq.

 

[zenmastering]

I didn't. I just assumed you are not as crazy. A Hypex NC400 amplifier would be a great.

I use that very amp to run my Revel Studio 2 speakers and it works well.

 

[QMuse]

We make fun of subjectivists often but hey, maybe we should listen to them sometimes. So I setup the speaker to play pink noise for 24 hours. Then I played my favorite tracks again. Wow. I could not believe my ears. All the micro-detail and detail materialized. Incredible!!!

LOL This made me spill my first morning coffee!

Note that the above is not an everyday issue as I use Dirac for room EQ for my system when it is normally being used. I had decided to test speakers without EQ and that came to bite me given the circumstances.

In my opinion you should let Dirac EQ each speaker you're testing before listening. It will not take much time but I'm sure it would be worth it. You solved offending bass peak which certainly helped. Personally I would use filter with higher Q as shape of your fitler doesn't really match the shape of the peak -I suspect it should be at least 7. However, I strongly suspect that circled area consisting of 2 dips and wide peak should also be fixed as it certainly affects SQ. This measurement and circled area is also a warning to all folks who think that room affects only the area below tranistion frequency - this is simply not true as typically room affects, to a lesser extent but still very noticeable, frequencies up to 900-1000Hz.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Well we are told the low frequencies (below 200 hz if I recall) are 30% of how listeners rate a speaker. We also know below Schroeder (usually 300 hz or less in fairly modest rooms) positioning and EQ will effect response. So it isn't surprising that speakers that have reasonably good spin-o-ramas can end up ranked by how well the were fitted into a room.

 

[pavuol]

Golf panther for a speaker that "needs" EQ? That's obscenely biased! Come on, it's not even proper 3-way!
Anyway, I'm still waiting for a golfpanther awarded powered monitor for a decent price.

 

[MZKM]

Maybe we need a new sorting category for the Speaker Review and Measurement Index table: 'After EQ'

Too many variables. For instance, bass response could be very deep or shallow based on room size (let alone placement), the EQ software you have will also heavily impact results. The most common room EQ’s (surround receivers) don’t usually let you change the target curve, so that’s another factor.

Above the transition frequency (say ~500Hz), I could add a note on how easy a speaker would be to EQ, but that should be easy for most to decipher from the Spinorma (DI and peaks vs dips).

 

[QMuse]

Golf panther for a speaker that "needs" EQ? That's obscenely biased! Come on, it's not even proper 3-way!
Anyway, I'm still waiting for a golfpanther awarded powered monitor for a decent price.

Every speaker needs room EQ. Some of them may accidentally land on a better position than other, but simple truth is that if you would like to get in-room response like the one predicted by spinorama you need to do room EQ.

 

[Dimifoot]

Every speaker needs room EQ.

And subwoofer support. Two at least.

That’s why simple 2 channel DACs are useless, apart from headphone use.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Balle, why on earth do you sit so close to back wall? Your postitioning is against all instructions! You get maximum of 30Hz mode and lots of cancellations in midrange! Ratio of direct/vs reflected sound is close to 0%.

Simply moving your seat to 345 yellow mark (for listening), would give you totally different and better sound without any eq.

I tried every Position , the best are 120cm for speakers and 420 for listener or 67cm speakers and 245 for listener. I started far back in the «stupid» Position since that was the way to get sufficient bass with my existing speakers. And this is a living room also , not a separate listening facility. 345 cm sounds really bad by the way. No bass below 50hz and ugly cancelations. For critical listening I need too move chair to sweet spot.

 

[Balle Clorin]

I tried every Position , the best are 120cm for speakers and 420 for listener or 67cm speakers and 245 for listener. I started far back in the «stupid» Position since that was the way to get sufficient bass with my existing speakers