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Revel F328Be Speaker Review

Blumlein 88

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I've had three pairs 2x bookshelf, 1x floorstanders) and when compared (comparator) with pretty much anything else in my collection, I gave them away.

I think people in general are missing out on a lot of good speakers and some great speakers by not having easy access to B&M stores stocked with speakers and a proper comparator setup.
Knew of any audio store with an interesting setup. Large room. You sat in a swiveling chair in the middle. To compare speakers each pair was set up at opposite ends of the room. They could instantly switch the source to either end. An interesting way to demo speakers for the customer.
 

BYRTT

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That much room gain?! If I take my JBL 308p Mkii as an example which has been measured recently by Amir and compare that to my in-room measurements (one-sixth smoothing on bass) I don't really see any room gain and my speakers are about 1m from the wall (I've got my door open though, but it's just a regular door, not a barn!). Roll off of the bass is at exactly the same point, and amplitudes seem comparable.
View attachment 93265
View attachment 93267
So is there really that much gain on bass on tower speakers in a normal room?!
Admit it looks hot but its what spreadsheet spit out using +6dB per boundary and it can be +3dB is more real but also notice its corner loaded so 3x approximate same distances do their summing hot job there.

About your own in-room MMM of 308P MKII it looks be the "lean beer" you get out of it as we say over here :p dont know exactly why but your curve overlaid to Amir's is more or less the same, one reason could be interference is huge below 50Hz in your room another that 308P MKII is dialed in to roll off 7th order Butterworth and okay that is relative steep curve and takes some hot boost to begin see it move anywhere compared to for example my diy systems that is of natural 2nd order roll off and sensitive to whatever boundarys, hardisj posted a few in-room MMM few pages back and it looks he get him some gain..

Robbo99999_JBL_308P_in-room_MMM_2.png
 
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Frank Dernie

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It’s not useless, it’s just far from settled science.
This is what people need to be aware of.
Also it is a preference weighted towards the majority, obviously, but not universal.
Accepting it as absolute and becoming an zealous disciple is a problem, IMO, and more likely from inexperienced people I suppose.
Everything about speakers, rooms and people's preference is complicated. IME people tend to like what they are used to and certainly my initial reaction to a speaker with a very different response to my current speaker, particularly on a favourite test track, is inevitably going to be at the very least sceptical, at first.
 

Robbo99999

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Here are my Revel F36 towers in room(compare to the measurements on the F35 measured on this site):
View attachment 93269
Yes, you definitely getting room gain because flat to 20Hz vs spinorama. (Is that corner loaded & sealed room, door shut?)
The 308p mkII is a stand-mounted or desk mounted speaker and not a tower vertically arrayed with multiple bass drivers. It also depends on how solid and thick the boundaries are... I imagine the modelling is for solid concrete walls -- maybe apart from the ceiling(?)
Depending on the size of your room and the construction materials, there may or may not be room pressurisation gain within the audio band. With solid construction and a room <200m^3, for example, there is likely to be significant pressurisation beginning at maybe 30Hz or higher. In smaller rooms, this will begin higher in frequency. In larger rooms, or rooms with very lossy construction, there may be no pressurisation gain within the audio band at all.

As to your specific case, you have a speaker there that rolls off in the bass at approx. 36dB/octave beginning at around 50Hz. There is essentially no output below 30Hz. Unless you have a very small, solid room, it's unlikely you'll see any effects of room pressurisation gain there.
Admit it looks hot but its what spreadsheet spit out using +6dB per boundary and it can be +3dB is more real but also notice its corner loaded so 3x approximate same distances do their summing hot job there.

About your own in-room MMM of 308P MKII it looks be the "lean beer" you get out of it as we say over here :p dont know exactly why but your curve overlaid to Amir's is more or less the same, one reason could be interference is huge below 50Hz in your room another that 308P MKII is dialed in to roll off 7th order Butterworth and okay that is relative steep curve and takes some hot boost to begin see it move anywhere compared to for example my diy systems that is of natural 2nd order roll off and sensitive to whatever boundarys, hardisj posted a few in-room MMM few pages back and it looks he get him some gain..

View attachment 93274
For you's three that are asking me about my room & related stuff, here's a REW simulation of my room, but I've got a 1.3m deep by 1.9m wide recess in the rear left back wall where I have a dining table so my room is not rectangular, but more "stubby L-shaped" and I completely disregarded that space in this simulation (pretended it's not even there), also got deep (0.5m) recessed "window boxes" on front wall not accounted for ...I didn't know what values to put in for Surface Absorption either (1cm thick rug on floor in front of listening position, rear wall 'painted MDF?', right wall 'painted MDF?', front wall painted smooth brick, left wall painted smooth brick, ceiling 'dabbled/textured painted plasterboard?'):
REW room sim.jpg

And following a couple of screenshots showing speaker position in more detail:
1.jpg2.jpg
@BYRTT , my in room measured response is after I'd done an Anechoic EQ on the speaker using Amir's measurement data (of Listening Window) if that makes any difference to your observations at all:
JBL 308p Mkii Listening Window Equaliser APO.jpg


Does any of that help put my in-room measurement (of JBL 308p Mkii) in perspective vs what you are saying about expected room gain on the Revel F328 being reviewed here, I'm not sure how to interpret the comparison? (I see your point BYRTT re sharp roll off of bass on the JBL 308 which explains why you can't get anywhere near flat to 20Hz with any room gain).
 
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andreasmaaan

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I'll lay my cards on the table before I launch into this post and say that, based on my reading of the science and my own experience, I believe this speaker has issues in the bass response and that I believe it's going to sound lean unless placed close to a wall (which is not something I would want to do, and which therefore would rule this speaker out for me).

Ok, what I'm now going to do is to look at the Harman research on loudspeaker preference (specifically as it relates to bass response), try to correlate that with measurements of this Harman speaker, and finally try to speculate as to why this speaker appears to diverge from the Harman recipe.

(1) What does the Harman research tell us about what a speaker's bass response should look like?

The obvious starting point here is Olive's well-known model (2004, 2005), laid out in his paper here. The details barely need repeating on ASR, but suffice it to say that, based on statistical analysis of listener preference ratings and anechoic measurements of 70+ speakers, Olive concludes that 30.5% of listener preference is accounted for by bass extension, which is defined as how low in frequency the speaker's -6dB point is in relation to its mean listening window level between 300Hz and 10kHz.

His conclusion is unambiguous: lower = more preferred.

Toole concurs with Olive that bass extension is the relevant metric but, on the basis of his own work at the NRC in 1986, finds that it is in fact the -10dB point that correlates to listeners' perceived bass extension. In Sound Reproduction, he writes that:
..the relationship between “fidelity” rating and low-frequency cutoff reached a maximum correlation for cutoff frequencies determined at the −10 dB level. Bearing in mind that this is a correlation achieved with all other factors varying indicates that bass extension is a very important factor in overall sound quality evaluations.

Later work by Olive et al investigated loudspeaker bass preference more specifically. They asked listeners to adjust the bass response of a Revel F208 in an acoustically optimised room using a tone control, until listeners arrived at their subjectively preferred relative bass level.

The mean preferred bass level is shown below (in black) relative to the predicted in-room response of the F208 based on Harman's spin data (in cyan):

1605268265255.png


We are in quite a good position here, because we can directly compare Harman's anechoic data and their derived PIR for the F208 with the preferred bass response from the study, and use it to infer what the preferred anechoic bass response of the F208 should be.

Below are those data. Using the difference between the cyan and black traces in the graph above, I've drawn (in red) an approximation showing what this speaker's response would be below 100Hz if it matched listeners' mean preferences in Olive's study (NB: I have used the Harman spin data here since it is from these data, not ASR's more accurate data, that the PIR used by Harman in the graph above is derived):

1605268819583.png


As is apparent, listeners appear in this study to have preferred bass that was not only extended, but indeed also slightly boosted.

In other words, all published Harman and related research findings (of which I'm aware) suggest that the ideal anechoic bass response in a floorstanding loudspeaker is flat and extended (if not actually boosted). There is no published finding suggesting that a rolled-off response, or a high -3dB, -6db or -10dB point, is preferred. And the one study that we have which correlates bass preference directly with a known set of anechoic measurements of a Harman floorstanding speaker (F208) tends to confirm this.

(2) How does this correlate with measurements of the F328Be?

Well, this is a relatively short section ;) The F328Be begins rolling off at around 80Hz, and has its -3dB, -6dB, and -10dB points at 67Hz, 48Hz, and 34Hz, respectively. On top of all that, it seems to have a -2dB shelf below around 200Hz:

1605271425751.png


It's bass response diverges greatly from that specified by the Harman (and related) research.

(3) Why?

Just a quick treatment of all the possible options I can think of here:

(a) The Harman research is wrong. Possible, but I know of no evidence in support of this, and of plenty of evidence to the contrary.

(b) Kevin Voecks believes the Harman research is wrong. Quite possible, I think, and perhaps he has some (unpublished) research to back such a view up. It would also be consistent with what appears to be a trend of relatively "polite" bass with limited extension (compared to many competitors) across the entire Revel line (other than the Salon2). It's also worth noting that the -2dB shelf occurs approximately at the point at which the speaker transitions from 2pi to 4pi radiation. (EDIT: this would make the Salon2 an anomaly).

(c) The speaker is designed to be used with subwoofers. Also possible, although it would surprise me that the largest speaker in the Performa range were designed so that reasonable performance could not be obtained without subs.

(d) The speaker is designed to be placed close to a wall. If this were the case, it would be odd that Revel doesn't explicitly state it (especially given they also manufacture on-wall speakers), and again given it's the largest speaker in the range.

(e) Sensitivity was (hugely) prioritised over bass extension. Quite possible, although it would seem at odds with Harman's research findings, and the current situation (no pun intended) when it comes to modern amplification.

(f) The enclosure is not large enough for the woofers. This actually seems increasingly like the most plausible explanation to me (albeit pretty bizarre given this is Revel we're talking about). We already know (based on independent measurements and published TS parameters) that the 8" woofers used in the rest of the Performa range need large enclosures to extend low in frequency. Could it be that Marketing told the design team they had to squeeze three woofers into an enclosure that in reality should fit only two?

(g) This response is needed so it doesn't beat the Salon 2 in listening tests. This way the more expensive Salon can remain their top of the line speaker. (c/o @Blumlein 88)

Anyway, those are all the possible reasons I can think of....
 
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Blumlein 88

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I'll lay my cards on the table before I launch into this post and say that, based on my reading of the science and my own experience, I believe this speaker has issues in the bass response and that I believe it's going to sound lean unless placed close to a wall (which is not something I would want to do, and which therefore would rule this speaker out for me).

Ok, what I'm now going to do is to look at the Harman research on loudspeaker preference (specifically as it relates to bass response), try to correlate that with measurements of this Harman speaker, and finally try to speculate as to why this speaker appears to diverge from the Harman recipe.

(1) What does the Harman research tell us about what a speaker's bass response should look like?

The obvious starting point here is Olive's well-known model (2004, 2005), laid out in his paper here. The details barely need repeating on ASR, but suffice it to say that, based on statistical analysis of listener preference ratings and anechoic measurements of 70+ speakers, Olive concludes that 30.5% of listener preference is accounted for by bass extension, which is defined as how low in frequency the speaker's -6dB point is in relation to its mean listening window level between 300Hz and 10kHz.

His conclusion is unambiguous: lower = more preferred.

Toole concurs with Olive that bass extension is the relevant metric but, on the basis of his own work at the NRC in 1986, finds that it is in fact the -10dB point that correlates to listeners' perceived bass extension. In Sound Reproduction, he writes that:


Later work by Olive et al investigated loudspeaker bass preference more specifically. They asked listeners to adjust the bass response of a Revel F208 in an acoustically optimised room using a tone control, until listeners arrived at their subjectively preferred relative bass level.

The mean preferred bass level is shown below (in black) relative to the predicted in-room response of the F208 based on Harman's spin data (in cyan):

View attachment 93275

We are in quite a good position here, because we can directly compare Harman's anechoic data and their derived PIR for the F208 with the preferred bass response from the study, and use it to infer what the preferred anechoic bass response of the F208 should be.

Below are those data. Using the difference between the cyan and black traces in the graph above, I've drawn (in red) an approximation showing what this speaker's response would be below 100Hz if it matched listeners' mean preferences in Olive's study (NB: I have used the Harman spin data here since it is from these data, not ASR's more accurate data, that the PIR used by Harman in the graph above is derived):

View attachment 93277

As is apparent, listeners appear in this study to have preferred bass that was not only extended, but indeed also slightly boosted.

In other words, all published Harman and related research findings (of which I'm aware) suggest that the ideal anechoic bass response in a floorstanding loudspeaker is flat and extended (if not actually boosted). There is no published finding suggesting that a rolled-off response, or a high -3dB, -6db or -10dB point, is preferred. And the one study that we have which correlates bass preference directly with a known set of anechoic measurements of a Harman floorstanding speaker (F208) tends to confirm this.

(2) How does this correlate with measurements of the F328Be?

Well, this is a relatively short section ;) The F328Be begins rolling off at around 80Hz, and has its -3dB, -6dB, and -10dB points at approximately 65Hz, 55Hz, and 38Hz, respectively. On top of all that, it seems to have a -2dB shelf below around 200Hz:

View attachment 93284

It's bass response diverges greatly from that specified by the Harman (and related) research.

(3) Why?

Just a quick treatment of all the possible options I can think of here:

(a) The Harman research is wrong. Possible, but I know of no evidence in support of this, and of plenty of evidence to the contrary.

(b) Kevin Voecks believes the Harman research is wrong. Quite possible, I think, and perhaps he has some (unpublished) research to back such a view up. It would also be consistent with what appears to be a trend of relatively "polite" bass with limited extension (compared to many competitors) across the entire Revel line (other than the Salon2). It's also worth noting that the -2dB shelf occurs approximately at the point at which the speaker transitions from 2pi to 4pi radiation.

(c) The speaker is designed to be used with subwoofers. Also possible, although it would surprise me that the largest speaker in the Performa range were designed so that reasonable performance could not be obtained without subs.

(d) The speaker is designed to be placed close to a wall. If this were the case, it would be odd that Revel doesn't explicitly state it (especially given they also manufacture on-wall speakers), and again given it's the largest speaker in the range.

(e) Sensitivity was (hugely) prioritised over bass extension. Quite possible, although it would seem at odds with Harman's research findings, and the current situation (no pun intended) when it comes to modern amplification.

(f) The enclosure is not large enough for the woofers. This actually seems increasingly like the most plausible explanation to me (albeit pretty bizarre given this is Revel we're talking about). We already know (based on independent measurements and published TS parameters) that the 8" woofers used in the rest of the Performa range need large enclosures to extend low in frequency. Could it be that Marketing told the design team they had to squeeze three woofers into an enclosure that in reality should fit only two?

Anyway, those are all the possible reasons I can think of....
(g) This response is needed so it doesn't beat the Salon 2 in listening tests. This way the more expensive Salon can remain their top of the line speaker.

I agree Revel vs most other quality speakers seems a little light in the bass, and seem not to reach quite as deep to comparably priced/sized competitors. As someone using panels and not liking too much bass I rather prefer it usually. And I'd say their monitors in the JBL line are something of the reverse having more relative bass and more extension than most competitors.
 

andreasmaaan

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(g) This response is needed so it doesn't beat the Salon 2 in listening tests. This way the more expensive Salon can remain their top of the line speaker.

Interesting thought, thanks. I wonder what Revel's plans are for the Ultima series now that it appears that the 2nd generation is out of production.
 

ernestcarl

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Yes, you definitely getting room gain because flat to 20Hz vs spinorama. (Is that corner loaded & sealed room, door shut?)

Not corner, but midpoint directly in the front wall. I actually get an even wider boost if the sub is placed in the corner, making the boosted response look even more linear... I don’t use the corner as I can sort of feel the pressurization waves originating from that general area making the sub “fuzzily” localizable.

The basement, actually, whole house pretty much is sealed. Other than incoming and outgoing circulation from a forced-air HVAC system.

*Forgot to mention, all doors have rubber door sweeps and air sealing edges — it really doesn’t isolate the sub bass sounds much, though. True bass isolation treatment is a very costly renovation endeavour.
 
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flipflop

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DDF

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Its hard to count how many readers in this thread that look down on low end reach performance for F328Be plus Amir must be deaf....

@BYRTT
As others have pointed out, that spreadsheet is an approximation for maximum possible gain assuming sealed room and no losses, rarely if ever the case (IME, with drywall construction and typical some open room flow, not even close).

That aside though, I think it's fair to question the response given the variance in Revel's own design targets there. Assuming the Klippel is giving perfect results (and even Amir isn't 100% sure as he states in this thread), the different Revels have notably different low frequency tunings with the F328Be the softest of the bunch.

The 3 8" woofers provide large dynamic range and that no doubt helps support the impression of loud authoritive bass: they will just play bass loudly.

But all these different low frequency tunings can't be "right". Its a very worthy question and observation. Note that a higher f6 will often drive a stronger bass hump as a trick to give the impression of deeper bass, and we're seeing some of that here, but it doesn't seem to be the complete story

F328Be:
1605275497276.png


F208:
1605275521051.png


M106:
1605275550989.png


M16:
1605275572891.png
 
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thewas

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The mean preferred bass level is shown below (in black) relative to the predicted in-room response of the F208 based on Harman's spin data (in cyan):

index.php
It should be kept in mind though that any preferred target curves also depend on the room reverberation curve, listening level and material.
For example in a highly bass absorbing room (for example non-solid walls) when such a target curve is per EQed dialed in then it usually sounds too muddy, so my experience is that its the best to have an anechoically linear bass loudspeaker and just EQ it around the average of its listeners position peaks and dips to reduce the room influence.
For older recordings which were mixed with large monitors without room correction, still a bass boost might be needed, but that is rather a problem of the recordings.
 

Robbo99999

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(@BYRTT , I just noticed you traced my Predicted Response after RoomEQ into your graph rather than the actual measurement, the actual measurement is the non-highlighted curve)
 

andreasmaaan

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It should be kept in mind though that any preferred target curves also depend on the room reverberation curve, listening level and material.
For example in a highly bass absorbing room (for example non-solid walls) when such a target curve is per EQed dialed in then it usually sounds too muddy, so my experience is that its the best to have an anechoically linear bass loudspeaker and just EQ it around the average of its listeners position peaks and dips to reduce the room influence.
For older recordings which were mixed with large monitors without room correction, still a bass boost might be needed, but that is rather a problem of the recordings.

Yeh, I tend to agree with that.

The reason I presented that graph from the Olive study was not to demonstrate that the bass response should be shelved up in all rooms, but rather to show that, in that particular study, listeners preferred to dial in a bass response that was (just as you suggest) essentially anechoically linear and extended.
 

vavan

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still a bass boost might be needed, but that is rather a problem of the recordings
Or harshness taming in brittle/bright recordings. Both might be alleviated to some extent with dynamic equalizers and/or multiband compressors...
 

Valentin R

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Interesting -- I think you're the first to express a preference of the F328Be over the Salon2's. So far, the majority of direct comparisons report that the Salon2 still beat the F328Be (including several people on this thread), in both blind and sighted tests. I'd be interested to hear more of your thoughts on this. I'm also interested about how you find the bass response, since the measurements here would imply they have quite a lot less bass extension than the Salon2's.

The bass is incredible and non of the observations in the Salon2 vs F328be are about lacking bass
On the contrary
Observation where made of the hi frequency

I have heard booth

F288F24B-9015-4DBC-8142-2B6EFD35CCD4.jpeg
 
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hardisj

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Just a comment about the Salon 2 vs F328, if anyone recalls Kevin Voecks actually posted a double blind of the F228, Salon 2 and Magico A3 I believe, it's been removed now but I believe the Salon 2 was only rated .5 preference ratings higher than the F228 and that difference could very likely be because of the differences in bass. I could easily see the F328 being a statistical tie or slightly besting the Salon 2 in double blinds based off of that.

Also remember that the Salon 2 is being discontinued, I heard they are producing one last batch and they're gone. That could mean that the Be series is just as good or at least close enough to make the ultima 2 series not worth it or maybe they're going to be releasing an Ultima 3 series soon, who knows.

Luckily, I downloaded it. :)

See attached pdf or view photos below. Cover and last page are not included.


Revel F228-Magico A3-Paradigm 3F  Test Report Med Res_Page_2.png
Revel F228-Magico A3-Paradigm 3F  Test Report Med Res_Page_3.png
Revel F228-Magico A3-Paradigm 3F  Test Report Med Res_Page_4.png
Revel F228-Magico A3-Paradigm 3F  Test Report Med Res_Page_5.png
Revel F228-Magico A3-Paradigm 3F  Test Report Med Res_Page_6.png
Revel F228-Magico A3-Paradigm 3F  Test Report Med Res_Page_7.png
 

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