Revel F208?

[NorthSky]

That is but one valid direction.

It will eventually spread down below to other speakers that more people will be able to afford. It has too with DSP chips more powerful and @ ever lower cost for speaker's designers to implement. It's the future that we cannot escape. ...The audio advancement in the pursuit of room integration sound. The BeoLab 90 is on the right path, and showing the way to the other audio scientists in the field.

It's like the Elon Musk of the future, in audio. ...The next Revel's generation.

 

[stunta]

Right after I posted this question, I went to a local dealer and had a listen to the F208s. I first played Beethoven: The Tempest Sonata - Allgretto and at the end of the track, was ready to take my credit card out. Love the dynamics my smaller speakers are not just not able to conjure up. The dealer is offering a returned pair with full warranty at 20% off retail (around $4500 all said and done). I can also get the matching center channel for 20% off. Temptation struck, but I managed to walk away with a refundable deposit so I have some time to think.

Now, spending upwards of $10K on active speakers - I wonder how much more I will get for the money. Decisions...

 

[DonH56]

Good for you! I wasn't able to walk away and my room is filled with little Revel speakers as a result...

 

[stunta]

I cancelled the order. I am going to set up my ATCs properly and live with them for a while so I have a better reference. Plus, the thought of going active is gnawing away at me. I don't want large speakers in my house that I will want to turn around and sell in a year or two - it is such a pain.

Waffle waffle.

 

[stunta]

@Soniclife Yep, I spent way too many hours with that REW sim... It is very good! I found in the end, however, that the room calculator I linked too has a room 3D view that lets you quickly view the pressure zones for that room mode when you hover over it in the graph... In @stunta's case, those 51 Hz, 77, 101, 128 Hz etc room modes will dominate at the current seating position... @stunta if you can move the current seating position, great. If not, then you might consider using DSP to help alleviate, it will make a major difference in the bass response. Bass traps are useless under 100 Hz unless you stuff the room... OTOH, a diffuser panel above your couch would assist with the midrange...

I am trying hard to find diffuser panels that are aesthetically reasonable (I realize this is subjective) and keep the thickness to a minimum given it is going to right above the seating area.

Would these be a decent choice? - https://www.gikacoustics.com/product/impression-2inch-acoustic-panel-diffusor-absorber/

Given the room is already quite lively, would diffusors still be a better choice versus absorption panels?

Thanks

 

[Wombat]

I cancelled the order. I am going to set up my ATCs properly and live with them for a while so I have a better reference. Plus, the thought of going active is gnawing away at me. I don't want large speakers in my house that I will want to turn around and sell in a year or two - it is such a pain.

Waffle waffle.

That is a sensible decision. If in doubt you are not ready to decide.

 

[maverickronin]

I am trying hard to find diffuser panels that are aesthetically reasonable (I realize this is subjective) and keep the thickness to a minimum given it is going to right above the seating area.

Would these be a decent choice? - https://www.gikacoustics.com/product/impression-2inch-acoustic-panel-diffusor-absorber/

Given the room is already quite lively, would diffusors still be a better choice versus absorption panels?

If you decide to go with straight absorbers they are pretty easy to DIY and you can make them look nice as well.

Stick some rock wool to some thin fiber board or something similar, spread some soft fabric over the front, trim, and staple it to the edges on the back.

Take She Who Must Be Obeyed to a fabric store and have her pick out her favorite cotton print.

Cutting the rock wool evenly can be a little difficult without the right technique. Use something large and a little heavy like a cut down 2x4 as straight edge, compress the rock wool as much as you can, and cut it with a fresh blade on a utility knife or clamp it it between two 2x4s and use large shears. Getting square cuts is key to the fabric gathering neatly and cleanly and hence WAF.

 

[stunta]

If you decide to go with straight absorbers they are pretty easy to DIY and you can make them look nice as well.

Stick some rock wool to some thin fiber board or something similar, spread some soft fabric over the front, trim, and staple it to the edges on the back.

Take She Who Must Be Obeyed to a fabric store and have her pick out her favorite cotton print.

Cutting the rock wool evenly can be a little difficult without the right technique. Use something large and a little heavy like a cut down 2x4 as straight edge, compress the rock wool as much as you can, and cut it with a fresh blade on a utility knife or clamp it it between two 2x4s and use large shears. Getting square cuts is key to the fabric gathering neatly and cleanly and hence WAF.

I've recently installed rockwool behind part of the wood paneling that faces the furnace and water heater. Its made quite a big difference in terms of blocking the noise from leaking into the listening area. I have seen DIY implementations online where people make a wooden frame, stuff it with rockwool and use burlap or some such acoustically transparent fabric on the front and back.

Another option I have considered is getting a pre-made panel (like this) and then covering it with another layer of aesthetically pleasing acoustically transparent fabric.

The question still remains though - I am not clear on why a diffuser would be the choice in my case versus absorption panels on the back wall. I understand the difference in that diffusers still retain some of the room effect, but in my case with seating right up against the back wall and the room's thin panel already making the sound too lively, wouldn't an absorption panel or two on the back wall be a better choice?

 

[andreasmaaan]

I've recently installed rockwool behind part of the wood paneling that faces the furnace and water heater. Its made quite a big difference in terms of blocking the noise from leaking into the listening area. I have seen DIY implementations online where people make a wooden frame, stuff it with rockwool and use burlap or some such acoustically transparent fabric on the front and back.

Another option I have considered is getting a pre-made panel (like this) and then covering it with another layer of aesthetically pleasing acoustically transparent fabric.

The question still remains though - I am not clear on why a diffuser would be the choice in my case versus absorption panels on the back wall. I understand the difference in that diffusers still retain some of the room effect, but in my case with seating right up against the back wall and the room's thin panel already making the sound too lively, wouldn't an absorption panel or two on the back wall be a better choice?

Those panels are pretty much a pre-fabricated version of exactly what @maverickronin described. I wasn't familiar with that company but I like that they publish measurements of all their products on their website.

The only downside to using those as opposed to constructing your own is the price.

I agree with you about the back wall. If I were you I would place absorption there given it is so close to the listening position.

 

[maverickronin]

The question still remains though - I am not clear on why a diffuser would be the choice in my case versus absorption panels on the back wall. I understand the difference in that diffusers still retain some of the room effect, but in my case with seating right up against the back wall and the room's thin panel already making the sound too lively, wouldn't an absorption panel or two on the back wall be a better choice?

That's something I'm a little unsure about. I've made panels for general noise control before but not acoustic treatment so I'd go with @andreasmaaan's advise.

 

[andreasmaaan]

That's something I'm a little unsure about. I've made panels for general noise control before but not acoustic treatment so I'd go with @andreasmaaan's advise.

Just to elaborate a bit, various studies using simulated early reflections in anechoic chambers have shown that side wall early reflections are preferred, while back and front wall early reflections are non-preferred.

However, studies also show that once a room becomes too dead, it is subjectively non-preferred.

I take from this research that back wall reflections should be avoided unless:

• sufficiently delayed (25ms + is generally the threshold between an "early" and a "late" reflection) AND/OR
• absorbing them would deaden the room too much (this would be the case only if the room is relatively dead to begin with)

The closer the back wall is to the listener, the more destructive the early reflection will be (since it will be closer in SPL to the direct sound).

When the listening position is right up against the back wall, then, absorption will almost always be the better choice.

 

[andreasmaaan]

One other thing @stunta, absorption will always be significantly more effective at lower frequencies if the absorber is separated from the wall by an air gap. So whatever you choose to use there, I'd suggest leaving an air gap of at least 5cm (the more the better within practical reason) between the absorber and the back wall.

 

[DonH56]

If the wall is right behind you'll get severe boundary effects. Diffusion directly behind will smear the image pretty badly IME/IMO. You need a little "space". I would stick with absorption on the back wall if it is close.

 

[mitchco]

I am trying hard to find diffuser panels that are aesthetically reasonable (I realize this is subjective) and keep the thickness to a minimum given it is going to right above the seating area.

Would these be a decent choice? - https://www.gikacoustics.com/product/impression-2inch-acoustic-panel-diffusor-absorber/

Given the room is already quite lively, would diffusors still be a better choice versus absorption panels?

Thanks

stunta, as others have stated, in your case with your seat up near the back wall, absorption would be better for sure. I forgot to look again at your layout. And as others have said again, not too much as it will suck the life out of the room and music

 

[stunta]

If you decide to go with straight absorbers they are pretty easy to DIY and you can make them look nice as well.

Stick some rock wool to some thin fiber board or something similar, spread some soft fabric over the front, trim, and staple it to the edges on the back.

Take She Who Must Be Obeyed to a fabric store and have her pick out her favorite cotton print.

Cutting the rock wool evenly can be a little difficult without the right technique. Use something large and a little heavy like a cut down 2x4 as straight edge, compress the rock wool as much as you can, and cut it with a fresh blade on a utility knife or clamp it it between two 2x4s and use large shears. Getting square cuts is key to the fabric gathering neatly and cleanly and hence WAF.

I wanted to get the Vicoustic flat panels but the importer won't have them in stock for 2 months. I will probably go with ATS and upload photos to get their custom panels. Its pricey but will have good WAF. Before I spend the money, I thought it would be good to try something out for cheap.

OK, so I wasn't in the mindset to get any work done today anyway, so I ran over to home depot and picked up a 2' x 4' board (this), glue, burlap fabric (this one is used for gardening and is probably a lot more porous than what they use in proper acoustic panels, but I grabbed what I could find). I had enough left over rockwool and here is the result:

I'd rather not show the back side. That other board is an extra piece I got for backup. So I placed this DIY panel horizontally on the backrest behind my listening position so when I sit leaning back, this goes 2 feet to my left and 2 feet to my right; my head is roughly centered vertically. Played some music, had a listen and was amazed at the difference until I removed the panel (put it far away), had a listen and couldn't tell any difference. I might be too tired for this so will revisit it later. Blind testing will be very tricky. If there is an easy way to measure this, that would help.

The difference between sitting back in the alcove versus sitting at the edge of it is quite obvious as was pointed out earlie. I tried this both with and without the DIY panel above and it was obvious in both cases. The alcove creates this weird effect (I think Don called this the cave effect) - any suggestions on how to mitigate this while retaining the seating position (we are getting this re-upholstered at a steep price and it would be a shame to be sitting outside of the alcove)?

I've ordered a felt pad for a rug and will try that out with the rug. I am hoping that when the room is fully furnished, things will get better acoustically.

EDIT: Btw, total cost of materials = $25, DIY time: 1 hour, WAF = 0. Thanks @maverickronin for the idea.

 

[maverickronin]

I forgot about the alcove. You might need to cover up quite more of the alcove's walls before it starts to have an effect.

Probably worth it to test with more of the quick and dirty DIY if you're planning on shelling out for custom panels. Maybe sight out reflection ponits with laser levels and mirrors or something.

 

[andreasmaaan]

@stunta do you have a picture of this alcove perhaps? I'm struggling to imagine exactly how this room works...

 

[stunta]

Sorry, should have posted photos earlier

As you can see, a work in progress...

 

[andreasmaaan]

Sorry, should have posted photos earlier

As you can see, a work in progress...

Thanks That alcove does look like hard work to treat.

I agree with @maverickronin - try to do what you can to put as much absorption in it as possible.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Thanks That alcove does look like hard work to treat.

I agree with @maverickronin - try to do what you can to put as much absorption in it as possible.

Fill it completely. Great bass trap.