Revel C208 or C205 for my specific room size.. Help!

[Dougey_Jones]

I'm building out a brand new dedicated media space that's 17' x 14.5' and planning on ordering a pair of Revel F206 and M106 for the rear in a 5.2 ch setup. I want to order a C208 because of Amir's glowing review and comments about the massive "Presence" that it projects, but I'm concerned about the MASSIVE size of this center channel. I like the form factor of the C205, but it's a 2-way design, which people bitch about relentlessly on here. In addition, I'm concerned that since the center channel carries 70% of movie soundtracks, that relying on two five in drivers just isn't going to cut it, I wish they made a C206, because that would be the sweet spot for me.

Thoughts?

 

[DonH56]

I have a Voice2, even bigger, and the new top of the line C426Be is huge. I also have a C205 (upstairs, paired to F206 L/R) and have compared (briefly) the C205 and C208. In a dedicated media space I would definitely get the C208. As you said, the center carries virtually all the dialogue and most of everything else (just not always alone), and the C205 is a bit small IME/IMO. The three-way design also provides better dispersion for multiple viewers in addition to handling deeper dialogue (lower in frequency, not going existential here) and greater volume (power). I had a serious space problem in the upstairs family room that drove the C205; if I had it to do over, I would figure out a way to fit the C208.

FWIWFM - Don

 

[Dougey_Jones]

I have a Voice2, even bigger, and the new top of the line C426Be is huge. I also have a C205 (upstairs, paired to F206 L/R) and have compared (briefly) the C205 and C208. In a dedicated media space I would definitely get the C208. As you said, the center carries virtually all the dialogue and most of everything else (just not always alone), and the C205 is a bit small IME/IMO. The three-way design also provides better dispersion for multiple viewers in addition to handling deeper dialogue (lower in frequency, not going existential here) and greater volume (power). I had a serious space problem in the upstairs family room that drove the C205; if I had it to do over, I would figure out a way to fit the C208.

FWIWFM - Don

Great feedback, appreciated.

 

[617]

Draw a plan of your space to scale. The C25 has reasonable dispersion to about +/- 15 degrees, or a 30 degrees total. If everyone is within 30 degrees I would say sound quality is fine. If you want a wider dispersing center speaker, consider another brand (KEF) or getting a 2 way bookshelf speaker from revel oriented vertically. M105 or 106 or whatever, they're all quite good.

Revel makes some clever design decisions to optimize the response of the two-way center speakers but ultimately they are design compromises for the exact same reason that 12 inch two way speakers are design compromises.

Also, for me personally, I would look at in-walls for your surrounds, I always find dedicated surround speakers sort of clunky looking, and revel makes good ones.

Amir does not listen to center speakers in the context of a home theater and therefore his listening impressions are not that useful. In fact, he doesn't listen to speakers in stereo at all. We've hashed this out a hundred times and long story short although his listening impressions are a good gauge of the overall quality of a loudspeaker they do not really put it in proper context.

I agree that the c208 is enormous and for me it's a man without a country. If you have the space and money for such a huge center channel at what point do you opt for a vertically oriented speaker behind a screen, or on the floor, or an in-wall solution? Nevertheless, if you want a no-compromise 3 way CC speaker, revel makes one of the best ones, but you can see why KEF's coaxial technology starts to make a ton of sense. A KEF r2C or q650 is a very attractive speaker with great dispersion and output.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

Draw a plan of your space to scale. The C25 has reasonable dispersion to about +/- 15 degrees, or a 30 degrees total. If everyone is within 30 degrees I would say sound quality is fine. If you want a wider dispersing center speaker, consider another brand (KEF) or getting a 2 way bookshelf speaker from revel oriented vertically. M105 or 106 or whatever, they're all quite good.

Revel makes some clever design decisions to optimize the response of the two-way center speakers but ultimately they are design compromises for the exact same reason that 12 inch two way speakers are design compromises.

Also, for me personally, I would look at in-walls for your surrounds, I always find dedicated surround speakers sort of clunky looking, and revel makes good ones.

Amir does not listen to center speakers in the context of a home theater and therefore his listening impressions are not that useful. In fact, he doesn't listen to speakers in stereo at all. We've hashed this out a hundred times and long story short although his listening impressions are a good gauge of the overall quality of a loudspeaker they do not really put it in proper context.

I agree that the c208 is enormous and for me it's a man without a country. If you have the space and money for such a huge center channel at what point do you opt for a vertically oriented speaker behind a screen, or on the floor, or an in-wall solution? Nevertheless, if you want a no-compromise 3 way CC speaker, revel makes one of the best ones, but you can see why KEF's coaxial technology starts to make a ton of sense. A KEF r2C or q650 is a very attractive speaker with great dispersion and output.

I'm honestly far less worried about the dispersion, given that the room is only 14.5" wide, my concern with the C205 is the lack of authority that two five inch drivers are going to have to drive 70% of my theater setup. I suppose they'll be handed off to my two very capable subs, but can they really be counted on otherwise?

 

[DonH56]

The -3 dB point for the C205 is 80 Hz vs. 50 Hz for the C208. Since I prefer to cross over above the -3 dB point, and prefer 80 Hz over 100 Hz, that is a significant difference to me (40 Hz to 80 Hz is an octave, to put in perspective). I haven't noticed our C205 "lacking in authority" but it will not play as loudly or as deep as the C208.

 

[Looneybomber]

Typically I always recommend a 3-way center IF the person must have a horizontal center.

Only in this exact case would I possibly entertain using the c205. Why? I have the f206s, but I haven’t listened to either c205 or c208, so I don’t know how they sound.

Speculation ahead.
1. The f206 mid/tweeter are the same in the c205. That gives a greater chance of timbre matching.
2. The off axis response of the c205 may be wide enough for you seating area.
3. Crossed at 80hz, I don’t doubt the c205 can really belt out some sound. That may be enough for your watching/listening habits.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

Typically I always recommend a 3-way center IF the person must have a horizontal center.

Only in this exact case would I possibly entertain using the c205. Why? I have the f206s, but I haven’t listened to either c205 or c208, so I don’t know how they sound.

Speculation ahead.
1. The f206 mid/tweeter are the same in the c205. That gives a greater chance of timbre matching.
2. The off axis response of the c205 may be wide enough for you seating area.
3. Crossed at 80hz, I don’t doubt the c205 can really belt out some sound. That may be enough for your watching/listening habits.

Great point abt the F206 and C205 sharing identical mid/tweeter combos. I didn’t think about that, just assumed that Revel would’ve done an excellent job matching the timbre of the Performa series top to bottom. The whole series share the same driver materials, crossover components, cabinet building philosophy etc.

Plus I will be using a front end with Dirac Live.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

The -3 dB point for the C205 is 80 Hz vs. 50 Hz for the C208. Since I prefer to cross over above the -3 dB point, and prefer 80 Hz over 100 Hz, that is a significant difference to me (40 Hz to 80 Hz is an octave, to put in perspective). I haven't noticed our C205 "lacking in authority" but it will not play as loudly or as deep as the C208.

Any insight on whether crossing the F206's over lower (60hz?) would assist the C205 in producing a credibly authoritative front soundstage. I've owned this RZ50 for months but it's never been out of the box, so I don't actually know what kind of job Dirac does at blending various crossover points and sharing the duties of bass production across multiple speakers. If I were to cross the F206's and M106 rears over at 60hz for example and the C205 @ 80hz would that be problematic or potentially helpful..

 

[DonH56]

Any insight on whether crossing the F206's over lower (60hz?) would assist the C205 in producing a credibly authoritative front soundstage. I've owned this RZ50 for months but it's never been out of the box, so I don't actually know what kind of job Dirac does at blending various crossover points and sharing the duties of bass production across multiple speakers. If I were to cross the F206's and M106 rears over at 60hz for example and the C205 @ 80hz would that be problematic or potentially helpful..

You can try that but I don't think it will help the center itself. Bass management will redirect appropriately and Dirac Live should handle phasing everything for you.

My concern, based on limited personal trials, is that you'd need to cross the C205 up around 100 Hz to really keep it happy, and content below that will go to the sub (not the L/R speakers -- see below). That means you could still have significant energy up around 150~200 Hz to the sub, and that can spread the image (unless the sub is under the center speaker). It also takes away from the center's lower end, which to me led to a bit of weirdness with a sort of "light" (not nearly so far as "tinny") center sound. Much of my HT's life the center was crossed higher than the mains but I prefer a more seamless front stage.

Note that unless you have a very flexible processor (think Trinnov) you cannot redirect the lower center frequencies to the L/R speakers, only to the subwoofer(s), so the L/R speakers can't really replace the center. Bass management takes frequencies below the crossover from any and all speakers to the sub(s), not to other speakers. I do not think crossing the mains lower will help the center though there may be other reasons to do so (countering room modes, preference, etc.) I had a small center in my first HT setup and ended up getting one that played deeper to get a better front sound stage. Compared to the F206's the C205 is, again my opinion, a step back.

Another option is to skip the center and just use L/R speakers to create a phantom image. I've done that too, but so much is in the center that I feel a HT system really needs one. Without the center it is harder to "anchor" the video, and sound outside the center sweet spot is much worse, than if a center is in play.

Again, all in my opinion; others do all sorts of things and are happy with their systems. Preference along with aesthetics, cost, and all that jazz matters.

HTH - Don

 

[Dougey_Jones]

You can try that but I don't think it will help the center itself. Bass management will redirect appropriately and Dirac Live should handle phasing everything for you.

My concern, based on limited personal trials, is that you'd need to cross the C205 up around 100 Hz to really keep it happy, and content below that will go to the sub (not the L/R speakers -- see below). That means you could still have significant energy up around 150~200 Hz to the sub, and that can spread the image (unless the sub is under the center speaker). It also takes away from the center's lower end, which to me led to a bit of weirdness with a sort of "light" (not nearly so far as "tinny") center sound. Much of my HT's life the center was crossed higher than the mains but I prefer a more seamless front stage.

Note that unless you have a very flexible processor (think Trinnov) you cannot redirect the lower center frequencies to the L/R speakers, only to the subwoofer(s), so the L/R speakers can't really replace the center. Bass management takes frequencies below the crossover from any and all speakers to the sub(s), not to other speakers. I do not think crossing the mains lower will help the center though there may be other reasons to do so (countering room modes, preference, etc.) I had a small center in my first HT setup and ended up getting one that played deeper to get a better front sound stage. Compared to the F206's the C205 is, again my opinion, a step back.

Another option is to skip the center and just use L/R speakers to create a phantom image. I've done that too, but so much is in the center that I feel a HT system really needs one. Without the center it is harder to "anchor" the video, and sound outside the center sweet spot is much worse, than if a center is in play.

Again, all in my opinion; others do all sorts of things and are happy with their systems. Preference along with aesthetics, cost, and all that jazz matters.

HTH - Don

Going with the C208 represents mostly aesthetic issues.. I'd need to get the matching stand, and then with that dominating the front center of the room I'd need to come up with a stand/rack solution that fit either all in the front left corner of the room behind the front left F206, or two smaller racks to sit on either side of the C208 on it's dedicated stand. Putting the C208 on top of a stand seems impossible given it's length, having a beautiful center speaker like that hanging over the sides of a standard AV rack sounds awful.

Equipment wise, I need to fit all this stuff somewhere.

1) Pass Labs X5 (78lbs)
2) 2x PS Audio Trio-A100
3) Onkyo TX-RZ50
4) Technics SL1300 MkII
5) Monster HTS-3500 MkII
6) SMSL SU-9 / Schiit Modi
7) Adcom GFP-750 Preamp
8) Home Theater PC

 

[DonH56]

Going with the C208 represents mostly aesthetic issues.. I'd need to get the matching stand, and then with that dominating the front center of the room I'd need to come up with a stand/rack solution that fit either all in the front left corner of the room behind the front left F206, or two smaller racks to sit on either side of the C208 on it's dedicated stand. Putting the C208 on top of a stand seems impossible given it's length, having a beautiful center speaker like that hanging over the sides of a standard AV rack sounds awful.

Equipment wise, I need to fit all this stuff somewhere.

1) Pass Labs X5 (78lbs)
2) 2x PS Audio Trio-A100
3) Onkyo TX-RZ50
4) Technics SL1300 MkII
5) Monster HTS-3500 MkII
6) SMSL SU-9 / Schiit Modi
7) Adcom GFP-750 Preamp
8) Home Theater PC

My AV console is ~60" wide so no problems fitting my center on it. I did have to pound together a riser for the TV but it doesn't look too bad to me (pix linked in my signature). The C205 upstairs is on its stand in front of a big fancy light oak entertainment center. It blocks access to the center doors, but we don't need to open them, so not an issue. The aesthetics ain't the best, but I've a forgiving and understanding wife. A C208 on its stand would be too high and block the DVR and cable box, as well as looking out of place, thus the C205 choice.

In your place, I'd either get a different TV console, or put a rack in a corner with all the gear. I bought a cheap'ish console planning to upgrade in a year or two with a Salamander or similar semi-custom rig to hold everything nice and neat. That was about 12 years ago, sooo... I am infamous in my family for my temporary jury-rigged setups that we use forever.

 

[Looneybomber]

There’s nothing more permanent than a temporary solution.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

There’s nothing more permanent than a temporary solution.

You’re giving me anxiety. I’m about to buy two IKEA Poang’s for this room as a temporary solution until I scrape together however many thousands my wife deems necessary for a sofa.

I’ll be summarily executed if the Poangs stay. Pray for me, ASR.

 

[Mr. Widget]

There’s nothing more permanent than a temporary solution.

Unfortunately often the case.

I'm building out a brand new dedicated media space that's 17' x 14.5' and planning on ordering a pair of Revel F206 and M106 for the rear in a 5.2 ch setup. I want to order a C208 because of Amir's glowing review and comments about the massive "Presence" that it projects, but I'm concerned about the MASSIVE size of this center channel. I like the form factor of the C205, but it's a 2-way design, which people bitch about relentlessly on here. In addition, I'm concerned that since the center channel carries 70% of movie soundtracks, that relying on two five in drivers just isn't going to cut it, I wish they made a C206, because that would be the sweet spot for me.

Thoughts?

Definitely the C208. It is a much better speaker.

Not sure if this helps, but I suggest you will be equally successful substituting the M105s for the M106s. In my opinion surround speakers are not as critical as the fronts... we do not hear behind us as well as we do in front.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

Unfortunately often the case.

Definitely the C208. It is a much better speaker.

Not sure if this helps, but I suggest you will be equally successful substituting the M105s for the M106s. In my opinion surround speakers are not as critical as the fronts... we do not hear behind us as well as we do in front.

Actually planning on buying a pair of both the M105 and M106 and using one of the two as desktop speakers. I’ll decide which later.

 

[LightninBoy]

Unfortunately often the case.

Definitely the C208. It is a much better speaker.

Not sure if this helps, but I suggest you will be equally successful substituting the M105s for the M106s. In my opinion surround speakers are not as critical as the fronts... we do not hear behind us as well as we do in front.

Or go even cheaper with the Revel Concerta line, or a different brand altogether. Take the money saved and put it towards your couch.

 

[DonH56]

One thing to bear in mind is that a bookshelf speaker on a stand takes up about the same space as a floor stander thanks to all the slim designs available now. And the floor stander will play lower, louder, be more efficient (sensitive, take less power for the same output), and usually have lower distortion.

FWIWFM - Don

 

[Bimbleton]

I owned a C25, and recently upgraded to a C208. It’s a wonderful change.

The thing I most noticed was that the C25 didn’t have enough heft in the low end to balance the detailed upper treble in my setup. As a result, it either sounded thin and slightly sibilant (if Audyssey corrected to 20K with Harman curve), or extremely chesty (if I limited correction to 500Hz). Plus, the lobing issues were really annoying. It sounded wildly different.

Now the C208 still has very slight seat-to-seat variation, but with some tweaking I got it sounding excellent! Here’s a graph of my results across 3 seats (Xover 80; Audyssey corrected to about 250Hz). It’s got authority and bite, without that chestiness that lower-end centers carry. The center can easily play down to 50Hz in my room.

I wholeheartedly recommend the C208.

 

[buzwork]

View attachment 244088I owned a C25, and recently upgraded to a C208. It’s a wonderful change.

The thing I most noticed was that the C25 didn’t have enough heft in the low end to balance the detailed upper treble in my setup. As a result, it either sounded thin and slightly sibilant (if Audyssey corrected to 20K with Harman curve), or extremely chesty (if I limited correction to 500Hz). Plus, the lobing issues were really annoying. It sounded wildly different.

Now the C208 still has very slight seat-to-seat variation, but with some tweaking I got it sounding excellent! Here’s a graph of my results across 3 seats (Xover 80; Audyssey corrected to about 250Hz). It’s got authority and bite, without that chestiness that lower-end centers carry. The center can easily play down to 50Hz in my room.

I wholeheartedly recommend the C208.

I too upgraded from the C25 (with M105s) to the C208 (with F206s) and the change is stunning. I have always had relatively wimpy center channels which, after years of using them, was clearly a huge mistake. The detail, clarity, range and power handling of the C208 is marvelous.

I think you'd have spend at least 3-4x the price to find a center worth upgrading from the C208. The only other center channel I've heard that would definitively make me want to upgrade was the Focal Viva Utopia Center.... which is 10x the price. Some day...