Revel bookshelf comparison of M16's to M105's

[Beave]

If the M16 sounds as good as the M105, then Revel hasn’t done a good job with product differentiation.

It's more complicated than one sounding better than the other. One is smaller, one is bigger. So they each have strengths and weaknesses relative to each other. Now, if we were comparing the M106 with the M16, then it's a more apples-to-apples comparison, and the M106 would probably be the "better" speaker in just about every way.

 

[tw 2022]

It's more complicated than one sounding better than the other. One is smaller, one is bigger. So they each have strengths and weaknesses relative to each other. Now, if we were comparing the M106 with the M16, then it's a more apples-to-apples comparison, and the M106 would probably be the "better" speaker in just about every way.

Very much my thoughts.. In a very small room the m105's and a good sub might be every bit as good as either of the other speakers , in larger rooms the bigger drivers have advantages ...

 

[Lsc]

It's more complicated than one sounding better than the other. One is smaller, one is bigger. So they each have strengths and weaknesses relative to each other. Now, if we were comparing the M106 with the M16, then it's a more apples-to-apples comparison, and the M106 would probably be the "better" speaker in just about every way.

I believe when my buddy got his 4 M105s he said the M105 was better than the M106. Something with how the 5” midbass driver integrates better with the tweeter. Given these are bookshelves, I don’t think the few Hz on the bottom end is the difference maker. How good are the highs and mids is what I’d be more concerned with.
The concerta2 speakers are designed to be inferior to the performa3. I’ll check the specs.

 

[aarons915]

Considering the price differential (if money matters to you) the question to ask yourself

View attachment 201870

I had the M105 in my room at one time and thought they were a bit bright and I think a big reason is that region you highlighted from 2-6k is flat while the M16 is more downward sloping. That combined with the increased bass response would have me believe most people would prefer the M16, you can always counter the bass with a higher crossover or EQ if you don't want it.

The difference in cost is small enough here that I’d get the performa3 over the concerta2. If the M16 sounds as good as the M105, then Revel hasn’t done a good job with product differentiation.

It’s just my humble opinion. Others could have different opinions.

I see your point but the M16 was designed after the Performa 3 series so it wouldn't surprise me if it came very close or even beat the M105 due to the smoother highs and increased bass response.

 

[tw 2022]

I believe when my buddy got his 4 M105s he said the M105 was better than the M106. Something with how the 5” midbass driver integrates better with the tweeter. Given these are bookshelves, I don’t think the few Hz on the bottom end is the difference maker. How good are the highs and mids is what I’d be more concerned with.
The concerta2 speakers are designed to be inferior to the performa3. I’ll check the specs.

Driver integration is more complicated than that, but that is a theory...

 

[Lsc]

I had the M105 in my room at one time and thought they were a bit bright and I think a big reason is that region you highlighted from 2-6k is flat while the M16 is more downward sloping. That combined with the increased bass response would have me believe most people would prefer the M16, you can always counter the bass with a higher crossover or EQ if you don't want it.


I see your point but the M16 was designed after the Performa 3 series so it wouldn't surprise me if it came very close or even beat the M105 due to the smoother highs and increased bass response.

It would be a big surprise to me but yes I agree the Op should get the M16 and I’ll buy the M105 to improve my surrounds.

 

[Beave]

I believe when my buddy got his 4 M105s he said the M105 was better than the M106. Something with how the 5” midbass driver integrates better with the tweeter. Given these are bookshelves, I don’t think the few Hz on the bottom end is the difference maker. How good are the highs and mids is what I’d be more concerned with.
The concerta2 speakers are designed to be inferior to the performa3. I’ll check the specs.

The measurements of the M105 and M106 do show a slightly better directivity, sound power, etc for the M105, due to the smaller midwoofer. But the bass extension is less on the M105.

So, yes, it's a tradeoff, and reasonable people can disagree.

Kevin Voecks of Revel has said the opposite of you/your friend - that the few Hz of extra bass extension on the M106 is far more noticeable than the slight improvements in off-axis response of the M105, making the M106 the preferred speaker for most people in most cases.

 

[Lsc]

The measurements of the M105 and M106 do show a slightly better directivity, sound power, etc for the M105, due to the smaller midwoofer. But the bass extension is less on the M105.

So, yes, it's a tradeoff, and reasonable people can disagree.

Kevin Voecks of Revel has said the opposite of you/your friend - that the few Hz of extra bass extension on the M106 is far more noticeable than the slight improvements in off-axis response of the M105, making the M106 the preferred speaker for most people in most cases.

I think it makes sense for a Revel employee to recommend the more expensive model.

It would be interesting what he would say between the M16 and M105. Probably that the construction, drivers and crossovers are superior in the M105 and will get the recommendation….and it’s more expensive .

 

[aarons915]

The measurements of the M105 and M106 do show a slightly better directivity, sound power, etc for the M105, due to the smaller midwoofer. But the bass extension is less on the M105.

So, yes, it's a tradeoff, and reasonable people can disagree.

Kevin Voecks of Revel has said the opposite of you/your friend - that the few Hz of extra bass extension on the M106 is far more noticeable than the slight improvements in off-axis response of the M105, making the M106 the preferred speaker for most people in most cases.

This is true but bass extension, output and distortion can all be improved by using subwoofers and I would say most people would be using subs with any bookshelf speaker with a 5" driver. You can't fix the directivity problem in the M106 so the M105 has the potential for being the better speaker by simply using a sub or 2 which anyone serious about bass will be doing regardless of their mains.

This is one problem I have with the way Harman tests speakers, it inflates the importance of bass response and extension. For towers that might make sense but I feel like bookshelf speakers should be tested using subs or EQ'd in the bass to have similar rolloffs.

 

[tw 2022]

this is one problem I have with the way Harman tests speakers, it inflates the importance of bass response and extension. For towers that might make sense but I feel like bookshelf speakers should be tested using subs or EQ'd in the bass to have similar rolloffs.

a very basic common sense thought that is often overlooked and poo-poo'd by "the powers that be"....

 

[ROOSKIE]

I am looking for some guidance on the sound differences between these two speaker models. I have read Amir's measurements and reviews, but I would appreciate some observations of others based mainly upon listening experiences vs measurements. If I like the sound of the M16's, is it likely that I will like the M105's even better? I have an opportunity to get the M105's at a discounted price which is close to the M16 price. Is that a no-brainer, or do some people prefer the less expensive M16's, and if so, please explain why. Thank-you.

I will start by saying that for $825 you should find out. I am pretty sure you could resell the M105's at no loss of $.

There are several folks here at ASR who have mentioned upgrading and not one has suggested not to nor has anyone else that I am aware of gone back to the Concerta2 from the Performa3 or BE.

Revel did an amazing job with the Concerta2, they also did an amazing job with the Perfroma lines.

In the past I had a set of M105's. I used them in a small room and larger room. They are great in a small room and in a larger room NEED bass help and NEED to be highpassed at 80-120hrz, otherwise they sound small. Especially at high volumes. I sold them at the time as I purchased them for a low price and was able to make out well passing them along and getting more speakers to try.

Fast forward a couple years and I picked up the M16 on a whim due to a deal price and like them very much. I prefer them over many speakers that I have used, even including the $2.2k KEF R3. I can not compare them with the M105's as they are long gone.

I can compare them with the M126be. Because I liked the M16's so much I thought why not try the M106's and went to buy a set. Ended up just doing the M126be. I was actually very skeptical they would hold value in the face of several great and less expensive speakers I own. Forget about it, the only thing that I have to deal with is the disappointment of how the M16's sound going back to them after using the M126be's. The M126be's are so good I am actually surprised. (Totally worth the full retail $ and a reasonable dealer will sell them to you for much less $4400.)
These are seriously good speakers and while bass limited like nearly all bookshelves still sound so wonderful alone. I do use a steep 40hrz HP to cut deep bass excursions or powered sub package that crossed in about 70hrz with the M126be high passed there.

The M126be is better than the M16 in every way bar none, it is subtle at first though decidedly there and and then startling upon going back to the M16's. The M126be is really, really good. They are in fact truly wonderful. They are what I think a very high end monitor ought to be and in this case is.

That is how I recommend you go about this. Use the M105's for a few days or a week and then go back to the M16's. You can also do the back and forth thing of course.
I would make sure to gauge the stereo effects. These REVEL waveguides help create a very pleasing version of the stereo effect and you would be remiss to ignore it's value. The dispersion characteristics of them are just so wonderful and right to my ears. They also have a wide sweet spot and since my GF listens with me often is huge.

Considering the price differential (if money matters to you) the question to ask yourself

View attachment 201870

You simply can not compare predicted in room steady state response charts.
That is not what your speaker sounds like at all. It is not a "cliff notes" of the sound character.
If you read Floyd Toole's book he makes that quite clear. I mean there is a reason the book is hundreds of pages long.
Don't understand why this happens so much here at ASR when in fact it runs 180 counter to what the various folks who essentially created the charts say, which is to look at the whole Spinorama and the polar maps and the then determine IMD/HD-Essential power handing SPL needs.
Geddes, Olive, Toole, Linkwitz all the big publishers on this side of the design pond.
You do not actually hear the steady state in room response at all. You might be aware of it's trend but that is not enough to describe what you hear.
The only thing of note regarding it, is that typically, speakers that measure well on and off axis in an anechoic space, have a general downward trend in this response. However you gague the sound by looking at the major data, not this chart. This represents the equilibrium between sound generation and eventual dissipation. It hardly tells you anything more.
Plus it in this case it is a prediction not even an actual measurement in your space.
You can not really cheat and over simplify, that is what this whole site is about, you have to look at the whole data package and even then some meaningful unknown still exits.

 

[abdo123]

Considering the price differential (if money matters to you) the question to ask yourself

View attachment 201870

Keep in mind that the hump of the M16 at 100Hz disappears once the port is plugged.

 

[eddantes]

I will start by saying that for $825 you should find out. I am pretty sure you could resell the M105's at no loss of $.

There are several folks here at ASR who have mentioned upgrading and not one has suggested not to nor has anyone else that I am aware of gone back to the Concerta2 from the Performa3 or BE.

Revel did an amazing job with the Concerta2, they also did an amazing job with the Perfroma lines.

In the past I had a set of M105's. I used them in a small room and larger room. They are great in a small room and in a larger room NEED bass help and NEED to be highpassed at 80-120hrz, otherwise they sound small. Especially at high volumes. I sold them at the time as I purchased them for a low price and was able to make out well passing them along and getting more speakers to try.

Fast forward a couple years and I picked up the M16 on a whim due to a deal price and like them very much. I prefer them over many speakers that I have used, even including the $2.2k KEF R3. I can not compare them with the M105's as they are long gone.

I can compare them with the M126be. Because I liked the M16's so much I thought why not try the M106's and went to buy a set. Ended up just doing the M126be. I was actually very skeptical they would hold value in the face of several great and less expensive speakers I own. Forget about it, the only thing that I have to deal with is the disappointment of how the M16's sound going back to them after using the M126be's. The M126be's are so good I am actually surprised. (Totally worth the full retail $ and a reasonable dealer will sell them to you for much less $4400.)
These are seriously good speakers and while bass limited like nearly all bookshelves still sound so wonderful alone. I do use a steep 40hrz HP to cut deep bass excursions or powered sub package that crossed in about 70hrz with the M126be high passed there.

The M126be is better than the M16 in every way bar none, it is subtle at first though decidedly there and and then startling upon going back to the M16's. The M126be is really, really good. They are in fact truly wonderful. They are what I think a very high end monitor ought to be and in this case is.

That is how I recommend you go about this. Use the M105's for a few days or a week and then go back to the M16's. You can also do the back and forth thing of course.
I would make sure to gauge the stereo effects. These REVEL waveguides help create a very pleasing version of the stereo effect and you would be remiss to ignore it's value. The dispersion characteristics of them are just so wonderful and right to my ears. They also have a wide sweet spot and since my GF listens with me often is huge.



You simply can not compare predicted in room steady state response charts.
That is not what your speaker sounds like at all. It is not a "cliff notes" of the sound character.
If you read Floyd Toole's book he makes that quite clear. I mean there is a reason the book is hundreds of pages long.
Don't understand why this happens so much here at ASR when in fact it runs 180 counter to what the various folks who essentially created the charts say, which is to look at the whole Spinorama and the polar maps and the then determine IMD/HD-Essential power handing SPL needs.
Geddes, Olive, Toole, Linkwitz all the big publishers on this side of the design pond.
You do not actually hear the steady state in room response at all. You might be aware of it's trend but that is not enough to describe what you hear.
The only thing of note regarding it, is that typically, speakers that measure well on and off axis in an anechoic space, have a general downward trend in this response. However you gague the sound by looking at the major data, not this chart. This represents the equilibrium between sound generation and eventual dissipation. It hardly tells you anything more.
Plus it in this case it is a prediction not even an actual measurement in your space.
You can not really cheat and over simplify, that is what this whole site is about, you have to look at the whole data package and even then some meaningful unknown still exits.

The point of my post was to demonstrate the similarity of measurement vs the disparity in price. While true that PIR that's very similar, will still sound different - the point was that the difference is negligible for mortal ears... For those of you blessed with 1db sensitivity and perfect tonal identification, your journey will be different.

 

[ROOSKIE]

The point of my post was to demonstrate the similarity of measurement vs the disparity in price. While true that PIR that's very similar, will still sound different - the point was that the difference is negligible for mortal ears... For those of you blessed with 1db sensitivity and perfect tonal identification, your journey will be different.

With all due respect.
You don't understand. (Or maybe I better say we don't agree, not like I am the reference point)
The PIR is more meaningless than the Harman Score. It is not what you hear.
Of all the extremely valuable measurements available here the PIR is not worth much more than a glance.

Anyway, the difference between the M126be and M16 is substantially more than minor SPL variations.

Quite a bit more going on. It is not really a subtle experience. It was enough that I actually considered at one point that somehow my DSP was engaged on the M16 with a profile from a different project.

I am not wealthy (financially, I deff am in other ways) so the price sucks but man the result is right on.
This from a DIY guy who has had some spectacular value for performance experience.

 

[kevin1969]

Keep in mind that the hump of the M16 at 100Hz disappears once the port is plugged.

Did the M16 come with port plugs because mine didn't. Or are people using specific third party brand port plugs for them?

 

[abdo123]

Did the M16 come with port plugs because mine didn't. Or are people using specific third party brand port plugs for them?

Just stuff a couple of socks in there.

 

[kevin1969]

Just stuff a couple of socks in there.

I'm far too fancy for that.