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Response to PS Audio on P12 PowerPlant Measurements (Video)

SimpleTheater

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I’m fascinated by the discussion on the PS Audio Regenerators over on PS Audio’s website. Paul basically wrote that they aren’t true regenerators and anyone would know this by simply searching for and reading the Google patents, which are publicly available.

A good lawyer would be looking for anyone who bought these products and get a class action lawsuit going as this seems patently misleading.
 

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FrantzM

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I

Its the expectation caused by the price difference and the jargon said by reviewers.

I used to be a person who exclusively listened to the biggest sized lossless files I could find and buy. Some of the files was even close to 300 mb per track. And i used to convert them to 320kbps mp3 to make sure i did hear the difference in formats.

I would compare the mp3 to the lossless parent file by scanning the spectrum seeing those data north of 20khz in the lossless file and then listen to the lossless and sure those details above the 20khz made a night and day difference.

One day i was listening to one of the master tracks contemplating the details and finesse with all those details above 20khz. I thought how would it compare to the mp3 and went to change the track in foobar. Foobar was hiding a nasty surprise for me. The track i was listening all this time was one of the mp3 files I converted myself. I had forgot to remove it from the playlist.

It caused a lot of embarrassment to my self esteem even though i was alone. But then something clicked in my brain asking myself what had actually happen.

Offcourse the lossless has more data but in my room amidst all the comb filtering I couldn’t identify those differences if I didn’t know what type of file was playing.

So if this is the realistic scenario for cases with actual objective proof then imagine what all our brain might be making up when we install silver lined cables, spikes, and power conditioners.

Now the lossless files rest in peace in a dusty hard drive and im streaming Spotify premium.
Mirrors my journey to freedom from the superstitions and supercheries of HEA (High End Audio).
Off Topics:
I also do stream Spotify Premium a lot.. I have Apple Music where it seems that most of the files are lossless... but I can't get around the weight of Apple Music UI (User Interface) and general usability. For once Apple is punting or at least miffing this ball... To play Spotify, I chose the playlist on my smartphone or tablet (IOS) and it sent to, and plays with nary a thought, on my Denon AVR... It just plays.. For Apple Music, I frankly don't know how to do it without a TV or monitor... I need to use my Apple TV 4K to .. and .. I need to invoke the remote control on the iDevices to control the playlist on the 4K ... It is probably doable but the procedure is so convoluted, that it needs to be memorized. Sign of a poor UI.

Peace.
 

MAB

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It's pretty clear the inbuilt THD analysis of the PS Audio P-12 powerplant is considerably better than you give it credit for. It is correctly displaying the notched-out residual under magnification, something completely unrelated to the number of pixels on the LCD. It's not an APX-555 and doesn't pretend to be. Take it for what it is.

The line regulation cannot be dismissed and it is trivial to demonstrate with any medium powered amplifier using a traditional linear (transformer/bridge/caps) that a lower supply voltage translates directly to a much lower output power. Also, line regulation serves to prolong the life of filter capacitors, incandescent dial/meter illumination and other components not sitting downstream from a regulator.

Most amplifiers of traditional design (the majority of amplifiers out there likely to use this product), have little to no regulation for their main high current supplies and not much more (other than a RC) for the front ends.

The simple fact of the matter is a low impedance, stable mains voltage supplying your gear is a good thing. PS Audio is supplying a product for sale that does that. That cannot be argued with and still retain credibility. You can choose to buy one or not, but this continual unwarranted attack on the man and the company is unbecoming.

Why not just let it go?
I joined this forum because I got tired of getting spooked into buying stuff like this from companies like PS Audio.
First, I get your points about stable line regulation, and the potential for improving service life of downstream components under certain use conditions and scenarios.
Taking your point about service life; I just don't think it's worth spending this money to save the filter caps and light bulbs in my equipment, compared to refurbishing or outright replacing the gear. I have in daily operation two Bryston 7BST, two 4BST, a 3BST, a 2BLP, and a couple Bryston preamps. It just isn't equitable to protect these with a device like this. And, in my experience, adding things like this to a system can increase the risk of failure (What happens when the P12 fails? Is It does add a large number of components, each with a mean time to fail and and additional risk of early life failure. Is the P12 as intrinsically reliable as the gear it is protecting?)

So, I don't think this is an unwarranted attack. While it is a messy argument, I think it shouldn't be let go.
 

FrantzM

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I’m fascinated by the discussion on the PS Audio Regenerators over on PS Audio’s website. Paul basically wrote that they aren’t true regenerators and anyone would know this by simply searching for and reading the Google patents, which are publicly available.

A good lawyer would be looking for anyone who bought these products and get a class action lawsuit going as this seems patently misleading.
I just read the very first post and Wow!!
Thing is the subjective side wants to believe, It is comforting and aggrandizing: "If you can hear these differences that escape, even the most sensitive microphones and measuring equipment, then you are special. You are one of the pre-destined, gifted person, member of a small audio community that is besieged by an ever growing number of tin-ear, reductionist, the so called "objectivist" audiophiles. You may not find thus, many that would complain about the lack or complete absence of efficacy of said product. For them that would be admitting that they can't hear the differences .. The horroro_O, the ostracism, in a community where members routinely hear the differences between Ethernet cables!! And some with the better (read: those with the even more stupendously expensive systems) can even hear the changes in sound if you move the cables... No! They will not come forward, If I were Paul, and the HEA, however, I would be careful: You never know. A pissed-off individual, with the financial wherewithal to push this to a tribunal and, things could come to be very complicated for the HEA industry...

Peace.
 
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Ricardus

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I just read the very first post and Wow!!
Thing is the subjective side wants to believe, It is comforting and aggrandizing: "If you can hear these differences that escapes even the most sensitive microphone and measuring equipment, then you are special,. You are one of the pre-destined, gifted person, member of a small audio community that is besieged by a ever growing tin-ear, reductionist, so called "objectivist" audiophiles. You may not find, many that would complain about the lack or complete absence of efficacy of said product. For them that would be admitting that they can't hear the differences .. The horroro_O, the ostracism, in a community where members routinely hear the difference between Ethernet cables!! And some with the better (read: those with the even more stupendously expensive systems) can hear the change in sound if you move the cables... No! They will not come forward, If I were Paul, and the HEA however, I would be careful: You never know. A pissed-off individual, with the financial wherewithal to push this to a tribunal and, things could come to be very complicated for the HEA industry...

Peace.
These seem to be two of the base commandments of audiophools.

1) They hear better than you
2) Their gear is better than yours.

I know I use this word to describe one of the big snake oil salesman, and you've seen me use it in this thread, but narcissism seems to be the most common components among this type of audiophile. They believe they are simply better than you.
 

Berlyassocial

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It is probably doable but the procedure is so convoluted, that it needs to be memorized. Sign of a poor UI.

Peace.
I’ve never used apple music. Honestly Spotify haven’t given me any headache to think of switching to something else. As you said it just works seamlessly.
 

MattHooper

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"The Science of Sound"

I saw this today in my email. I thought it ironic given the recent reviews and discussions.

VhePbq3kM8i-rhdG_9XeKylMlSAuAdiXZV4_utcdR54j1ZXvQZm7Z220b1D94OaiHvkJaGdf-szoBirk0l7A9h-rlnD5x9YOUB_jvbrxnKEK9ZgDfPu7XsZV45oy4BueNMovdWZ60kUzY9tRn6cKNM_MZBg=s0-d-e1-ft

They are another company that, like PS Audio, use sciency or engineeringy terms, and will even show measurements of the device doing something...but of course they NEVER show the actual output of an audio device being improved. It's just a technical story, some measurements used as insinuation that differences will be audible, and then it's all passed over to subjective reviews and audiophile anecdotes, which do the rest of the work.
 

don'ttrustauthority

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Yeah that's pretty much what it comes down to for me. There's all sorts of real world objective evidence that we can't hear differences between things that actually have substantial measurable differences but oh sure there's "worlds" of notable audible difference between cables and dacs and amps that measure essentially exactly the same. It's like people thinking they can taste the difference between strawberries grown on fields a mile apart when all the actual real, provable evidence indicates they can't even taste the difference between strawberries and apples.
Yeah, but at least that makes sense, unlike saying that measured differences matter even when those differences are not audible.
 

antcollinet

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There is nothing about making new products that would require anyone to admit anything.
You said they should go with the measurements. Measurements will always show that power conditioning of any form will never** make improvemenents to the audio quality on the output of audio devices, for the reasons clearly stated by Amir. Therefore if they go with the measurements they'll have to admit that, though they can improve mains qualtity with these devices, they can never make the improvements to audio they currently claim they can.


** (except in cases of exceptionally poor mains quality that prevents kit from running properly at all - but then basic UPS at 1/10th the price or less will do the same job)
 

BDWoody

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thd

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I’m fascinated by the discussion on the PS Audio Regenerators over on PS Audio’s website. Paul basically wrote that they aren’t true regenerators and anyone would know this by simply searching for and reading the Google patents, which are publicly available.

A good lawyer would be looking for anyone who bought these products and get a class action lawsuit going as this seems patently misleading.
Agreed! I own one, and am currently furious and unclear what to do next. The PS Audio forum continues to blow my mind. The PS Audio website descriptions of the product continues to detail "regenerates new, safe, and pure AC", when PS Audio themselves are now stating the device neither generates new AC nor pure AC.
 

CinDyment

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Agreed! I own one, and am currently furious and unclear what to do next. The PS Audio forum continues to blow my mind. The PS Audio website descriptions of the product continues to detail "regenerates new, safe, and pure AC", when PS Audio themselves are now stating the device neither generates new AC nor pure AC.
Take a screen shot, then request a refund for false advertising. Take screen shots of their website and where he says is it not a regenerator. You should not have to interpret a patent to know what it does.
 

Sgt. Ear Ache

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lol oh my. Interesting to learn that someone who is seeking things that benefit sound in meaningful, provable and real ways rather than imaginary (and usually expensive) ones is considered by Paul to be a "thorn in the side" of the industry. Also interesting to learn we're the ones interested in drama rather than discovering something "useful" about a product. Really, it shouldn't be necessary to "discover" something useful about a product though...should it?
 
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