Resources for newbie *listener*, not room acoustics

[smania]

I'm very new to this whole audio stuff... always listened to music in cheap speakers and headphones. I got my first pair of "serious" speakers and I can't believe how different they are... I can hear things I've never heard! I tried to read Recommended reading for new comers and inquisitive minds. but it seems those resources are mainly targeted to people looking to improve the acoustics of their environment or choose an amplifier etc etc but I think I'm at a step that is behind that:

how can I improve my listening, not the reproduction.
How can I feel "soundstage"? What kind of frequency response do I like? How do I feel "resonance"?

I think ideally I would need a resource like "listen to Fast Car by Tracy Chapman. Try to increase the EQ in the 2KHz region. Feel the <something here> compared to before?"
As a newbie I feel there are 10000 resources when it comes to improve the sound, but I can't find good resources on how to listen to audio... but how can I improve something I don't know in the first place?

 

[ADU]

If you're interested in learning to listen to your recordings and equipment with a more critical ear, this is something which can take a bit of time to develop. I believe Harman has a course that you can can take to train your ears to better hear things like resonances and other imbalances in a speaker (or recording?) though. Here is one ASR topic discussing it...

Harman's How To Listen software

Hi, Amir posted this link a few days ago: http://harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.com/ This software created by Harman and realsed in beta version in 2011 is a set of training exercices to test auditory capacities of EQ settings. According to Sean Olive, to be a trained listener you need to reach...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[ADU]

This is mostly about headphones, but I think some of it could also apply to speakers as well(?)...

I don't agree with everything in these next two videos. But for the more subjective stuff that alot of audiophiles talk about, which is not as easily measured, perhaps you might find these two videos somewhat helpful, at least as a starting point...

 

[ADU]

This is also a pretty good video demonstrating some different types of distortion.... which is measureable, but there is still alot of debate about how much and what kinds of distortion are most audible to humans.

 

[ADU]

I don't know of a video offhand which does a good job of explaining the differences between full (or wide) dynamic range recordings, and recordings which have been more compressed in their dynamic range (or DRC'd for short) to boost their loudness. But if you are interested in achieving the best sound quality on your gear, this is another important subject to understand.

Here are a couple wikipedia links that explain a bit more about it to get you started though...

Loudness war - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Dynamic range compression - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Most consumer digital audio content will have some DRC or other kinds of audio processing to boost its loudness, to make it sound better on inferior audio gear that cannot go as loud as higher fidelity gear without distorting/clipping.

Hopefully others here will have some better suggestions to check out on all the above topics.

 

[ADU]

Although I am not as knowledgeable on the subject of speakers, it's my understanding that the stereo imaging in a 2-channel in-room system has alot to do with the orientation of the speakers to the room and listener. And one common mistake that alot of newbies seem to make, perhaps because of space or other limitations, is placing their speakers too close to the front wall.

For the best stereo imaging, I think some audiophiles will suggest pulling the speakers away from the wall until the room "disappears". I think its also a good idea to try keep the arrangement of the speakers and listener in a configuration which is close to an equilateral triangle. Though some prefer the speakers positioned a little closer together than than this (at a bit less than 30 degrees off-axis) to help achieve a better phantom center.

The toeing or angle of the speaker is also apparently important for good imaging. I think most speakers should be toed-in toward the listener. But it probably depends a bit on the speaker's design and orientation in the room (and possibly some other factors). So I'd see what the speaker manufacturer recommends on this.

What speakers are you using, btw, smania?

 

[smania]

What speakers are you using, btw, smania?

Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2. Found them used with stands for €210 shipped. I have no idea if they sound better or worse than same-priced speakers. All I know is that I think I have to go through all my music collection as I think I only listened to half of what is in the CDs with my older speakers or headphones (looking for good headphones now...)

 

[smania]

(GREAT replies everyone, thank you so much! Hope that software still works... )

 

[charleski]

It's worth looking at the large amount of resources devoted to teaching music production, especially mixing. Here's an example:

How To EQ A Mix

EQ is one of the three fundamental tools used to shape the mix. Bruce Aisher explains how to use it to clean up a track. Many tools are available to us

www.attackmagazine.com

Obviously you aren't going to be applying these sort of radical manipulations to pre-produced music that you're listening to, but such examples make it easier to learn how elements blend into a mix and how different parts of the frequency spectrum affect the final sound. This facilitates an understanding of how your EQ is affecting the sound.

 

[ADU]

(GREAT replies everyone, thank you so much! Hope that software still works... )

You said you were not interested in rooms and acoustics, btw... But I have also found this video to be an invaluable guide in understanding something known as "the circle of confusion" (a term also used in photography, but with a completely different meaning), and how that also effects the sound quality on home audio systems. And also how some of the different frequency response characteristics of a speaker (especially its on and off-axis responses, and dispersion/directivity) can effect the fidelity and accuracy of its sound.

When you're ready for some more advanced reading on the above (and also room acoustics ), I'd also suggest giving Dr. Toole's book on Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms a look, for an even deeper dive into these subjects. Maybe this is something you could find at a local library?

 

[Colonel7]

Welcome! Those speakers are very good for the budget. I'm guessing you've seen Amir's measurement and review of them available here. Definitely take the time to understand the spinorama.

What I found really helpful to understand my own preferences was to listen near-field (like at a work desk distance of 1-1.5 meters from the speakers) with tweeters at ear height. Get a measurement Mic like a Umik-1 or similar and take some REW (great free software) measurements. using a laptop or PC as a source, then use other free software Equalizer ALL (I use PEACE interface), and then you can experiment with different EQ curves, individual parametric EQ (correcting for individual resonances). You will start correlating your individual preferences with the measurements. You can do the same at a further distance from the speakers too. The room's effects will come more into play then. Hope this helps.

 

[smania]

Welcome! Those speakers are very good for the budget. I'm guessing you've seen Amir's measurement and review of them available here. Definitely take the time to understand the spinorama.

What I found really helpful to understand my own preferences was to listen near-field (like at a work desk distance of 1-1.5 meters from the speakers) with tweeters at ear height. Get a measurement Mic like a Umik-1 or similar and take some REW (great free software) measurements. using a laptop or PC as a source, then use other free software Equalizer ALL (I use PEACE interface), and then you can experiment with different EQ curves, individual parametric EQ (correcting for individual resonances). You will start correlating your individual preferences with the measurements. You can do the same at a further distance from the speakers too. The room's effects will come more into play then. Hope this helps.

Thank you.
Yes I got those speakers based on the measurements.

Can I do the equalization (after measurements) with Denon AVR (1600H)? It's supposed to arrive next week...

 

[DVDdoug]

how can I improve my listening, not the reproduction.

That might be a bad idea! It could reduce your enjoyment of music! (It's a good idea if you are an audio engineer audio producer, conductor, and maybe even if you are a musician, etc.).

I've always been a "picky listener". I grew-up with vinyl and the "snap", "crackle", and "pop" annoyed me, while most people didn't seem bothered by it.

We've all heard low-quality MP3s but I've intentionally avoided trying to teach myself to hear compression artifacts in higher-quality MP3's. I also don't intentionally look-for visual defects when watching a movie...

How can I feel "soundstage"?

It's an illusion and I think different people experience it differently. It's not something that can be measured or quantified... It depends on the recording, speakers, and room acoustics. It also seems related to frequency response (which gives some headphones better soundstage than others).

It's not something that's important to me... It's probably more important for classical music listeners. I mostly listen to "studio" recorded rock where there was no actual stage and all of the sounds are artificially panned anyway.

Personally, I never get a good soundstage from any headphones. I can hear hard-panned sounds directly from the left or right headphone and most sounds seem to come from somewhere around my forehead. With Dolby headphone and a surround recording I can hear "something" happening to the "spatial image" and maybe some reverb (or something) but I never hear the sounds coming from behind like with real surround speakers.

What kind of frequency response do I like? How do I feel "resonance"?

It's something you hear... Resonance is "ringing". A bell rings, a guitar string resonates at a certain frequency, etc. It's a desirable part of musical instruments, but it's undesirable for reproduction. Your playback system will reproduce the resonance on the recording without adding any resonance of it's own. Those one-note "boom-boom" car stereos you sometimes hear are resonating at one particular frequency instead of accurately reproducing the bass.

You also wouldn't want a musical instrument that resonates at one-frequency... That would be boring.... The resonance changes moment-to moment depending on what note is being played. (Although the body of a guitar and other stringed instruments has multiple resonant frequencies that add "character" to the sound.)

 

[ADU]

Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2. Found them used with stands for €210 shipped. I have no idea if they sound better or worse than same-priced speakers. All I know is that I think I have to go through all my music collection as I think I only listened to half of what is in the CDs with my older speakers or headphones (looking for good headphones now...)

Interesting choice. The front porting probably means it can go a bit closer to the front wall, which could also potentially enhance the bass a bit. You may start to hear a bit more of the room, and lose a little sense of space if you put it too close though.

Another link to Amir's graphs...

A collection of loudspeakers measurements

pierreaubert.github.io

Thank you.
Yes I got those speakers based on the measurements.

Can I do the equalization (after measurements) with Denon AVR (1600H)? It's supposed to arrive next week...

Most good receivers will have some type of EQ features included. Whether the Denon would have EQ features with enough precision for everything you might want to do though, I couldn't say. Before going down that road though, I'd probably have at least a look at some other users' comments on the ELAC B6.2 in the topic that Colonel7 linked above, as it might give some ideas on how to approach them. These are some of my less informed observations though, based solely on looking at Amir's plots of the B6.2...

It's probably best to start by targeting a flat direct response. And the B6.2's direct response appears fairly flat to begin with...

A collection of loudspeakers measurements

pierreaubert.github.io

Based on Amir's plot though, it appears to have a noticeable high Q-factor resonance at around 710 Hz in the midrange. (High Q just means that the peak is narrow, rather than broad.) This is also apparent in Amir's waterfall plot as a long ridge between 500 and 1k Hz. The B6.2 also appears to have a little extra brightness at around 4.5 to 5 kHz in the upper mids/low treble.

The high frequencies above about 10k also appear a bit rolled off. And look like they could use maybe a bit more support to deliver a little more "air" and detail on the top end. And a little more elevation in the sub-bass frequencies might also be nice, since the bass is also somewhat rolled off below 100 Hz or so. (Changing the speaker's position, and maybe moving it a little closer to the front wall might help accomplish this, with the above caveats already mentioned about that.) But this isn't too bad for a smaller, lower cost speaker. And if you want/need more impact in the lower frequencies, the B6.2 would probably work very well with a separate sub-woofer to give you even better extension in that range.

The dispersion of the speaker also appears to get a little narrower (particularly in the vertical direction) at the cross-over of the speaker's woofer and tweeter. This is what's causing the dip in the B6.2's sound power response in the upper mids at around 1.7 to 1.8 kHz...

A collection of loudspeakers measurements

pierreaubert.github.io

There is a slight dip in the speaker's direct sound there as well. So a small upward correction in that range might be ok, if vocals sound too recessed. If you like listening at lower volumes though, then you might prefer a response that's a bit more recessed in the mids than in the bass and treble.

Cross-over errors like the above are quite common on lower cost speakers btw. So the B6.2 is not at all unusual in this respect.

 

[Chrispy]

I'd definitely play around with speaker placement as well as seating....rooms make a difference.

 

[kongwee]

If you wanna beef up your knowledge and experince in short time. Go for hifi show. See how they place their speaker and try that in your setup if you got space and permission to do so. Usually many workshop on this subject repeatedly over the years. I rather spend hundred traveling to listen to setup than buy one as I really have a setup.

 

[DWPress]

good resources on how to listen to audio...

Based on this question since you're newish to speaker listening - how about a this:

 

[EEE272]

Based on this question since you're newish to speaker listening - how about a this:

That was the one I was trying to find the name of. It is actually very nicely done. The English version also explains what you are supposed to listen out for.

A bit different, there is also a strange DVD for surround that simulates a couple of real-world places and some weird stuff to test your system.

AllMusic | Music Search, Recommendations, Videos and Reviews

AllMusic provides comprehensive music info including reviews and biographies. Get recommendations for new music to listen to, stream or own.

www.allmusic.com

It is a bit silly at times but it might allow you to see how realistic it gets.

 

[DWPress]

There's a separate playlist on Youtube that breaks it into the songs and interleaving comments from Chesky. You may or may not hear what he's suggesting you might hear but at least all of the music is extremely well recorded!

 

[ADU]

Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2. Found them used with stands for €210 shipped. I have no idea if they sound better or worse than same-priced speakers. All I know is that I think I have to go through all my music collection as I think I only listened to half of what is in the CDs with my older speakers or headphones (looking for good headphones now...)

Let us know how things are going with your setup when you can smania.

My only other thought on the above was that if you want to skip the addition of a sub-woofer for now, then you might see what else you could find on the cheap that has a little better extension in the sub-bass than the above. Because there is probably not a whole lot that you can do with EQ to improve the extension of a speaker in the lower frequencies, without increasing its distortion. As another member here suggested, changing the speaker's position relative to the walls may be more effective for that. But may also entail some other sound quality and imaging compromises.

Speakers with better extension out-of-the-box might run you quite a few more dollars or Euros though than what you've already got. Which may not fit your current budget. And I'm not really sure which other passive speakers would be good candidates for you to consider in that regard.

It's also nice to be able to audition more than one speaker (or headphone) at a time as well, in your own home, to compare some of the different strengths and weaknesses, and your likes/dislikes of them a bit more easily. I understand that can be difficult though, especially if you're operating on a limited budget.

In addition to ASR, you can also find good measurement data for other speakers on both Erin's Audio Corner (EAC), and Pierre Aubert's spinorama site that I previously linked to above. I tend to find Pierre's page the most convenient and helpful because he tries to pull info together from multiple sources.