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Resolving Measurement Issues with SONCOZ SGD1 DAC

saich

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Good to see the manufacturer has updated firmware to solve the issue. Some discrepencies seem to remain though? Comparing the measurements based on the latest firmware and the original one, the noise floor of the latest unit is significantly higher (5-10db). So are the amplitude of the second and third harmonic. The one at 5khz is almost -120db, comparing to the original measurement where the highest is around -130db.
 

MaxBuck

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Regardless of the interpersonal drama, it appears that some shenanigans may have been inserted into the testing process as a result of some questionable Soncoz hardware or firmware revisions that were not effectively communicated to their buyers and owners. That doesn't appear to be a good way to conduct business, if true.

GoldenOne has documented some measurement discrepancies on this component that should trouble objective audio customers. The other stuff, like Reddit posts, is not worthy of comment. This thread, https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...rement-discrepancies.11115/page-3#post-360066, is worth reading through. These aren't subjectivist complaints; they're valid issues being raised by measurement nerds.

EDIT: I'm in no way accusing anyone of malfeasance here. Just trying to hold Soncoz's feet to the fire for releasing equipment that performed in a significantly inferior manner to the example provided to @amirm for his original testing.
 
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aj625

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When one's beliefs—and therefore choices—are challanged by the truth, the truth in this case being science-based facts, and proven to be wrong, one can only respond in one of two ways, with anger or acceptance. Anger is so much easier because it reinforces one's perceived reality and maintains their belief system. Acceptance is capitulation to the realization that your life has been wasted believing in something that is false.
So philosophical and so true.
 

andrewjohn007

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Ergo: Keeping an open mind is conducive to not wasting your life away

a/k/a

The Decline of College Eduction in America - Where did it go so wrong?

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Professor Amir Guest Lecturing Old School Style on Reddit (Facts > Feelings Curriculum Series)
 
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Xyrium

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Sbaf and other subjectivist forums and websites are now worried about their very existence because slowly the wave is turning towards objective approach. They now fear to go to extreme heights eulogizing the mediocre boutique products as they will be exposed some day by asr. You no longer see extremely glowing reviews likes of schiit yggy few years back. No amount of subjectivism can change the objective measurements. Sadly some new channels and reviewers(goldensound) still sticking to subjectivism despite knowing and acknowledging poor measurements of a product and brazenly calling those poor faulty products as fun sounding.

Plenty of sheep out there to join 'em. Most folks don't want to comprehend the technical complexity of sound. The sheer number of factors which are discussed in a simple speaker review here, is enough to frighten most of those sheep away. So, they do what they know best, hide behind the veil of subjectivism and feign towards a knowledge of engineering because they've been reading marketing babble for so long.

That said, I'm pleased that you were able to substantiate your measurements Amir, but I sometimes think it's best to ignore those trolls. You can't satisfy people who don't have the intellectual capacity or willingness to educate themselves. Of course, I'm doing the same by replying here, but it's been a while, so...:cool:
 

EJ3

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A German saying - viel Feind, viel Ehr
(many enemies, much honour)
Being concieved in Charleston, SC (Southern USA) & born in Salzburg Austria (South of Germany) [but close enough, 20 kilometers or so], I must say that I agree.
 

Tks

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I think there's truth in this idea, but still, it is one thing to become defensive and another to become vile. There is plenty of defensiveness and snide remarks here, for example as @Tks mentions above, @GoldenOne managed to bring out some of the worst of this forum in the past few threads GoldenOne participated in. And I'm not entirely sure I'd lay all the blame for the drama in those threads at GoldenOnes feet.

But, at least it was mostly civil bickering. Call me old fashioned or whatever, I personally care about that. That and the fact that those episodes are outliers in what is otherwise a very knowledgeable, helpful and welcoming community.

I did o_O?

I actually don't know what GoldenOne has to do with it (I just learned about the whole Golden situation just yesterday). I don't see what issue he caused really - seems he just got a bit on Amir's bad side for whatever reason and got banned before that whole blind test he was offering to undertake.

I actually think a few people miss the forest for the trees when GoldenOne speaks. Though I've seen him make a few tangential comments while he makes the formally valid ones worthy of merit. Seems some may have read into what they thought he was saying as opposed to things he's tried to say. Last I recall, he made a claim that wasn't particularly scientific, Amir called him out with something along the lines of "really dude? how could you even think that", he replies to something along the lines of "I don't know, and I'm open to finding out if my notion holds up, but I'd change my position if evidence/experience indicates otherwise", Golden proceeds to talk about how he's trying to get an AP and is open to blind testing. And then idk what happens after that, but people say he got banned for whatever reason.

Armchair take with the limited exposure I had while I was around for that whole thread, it seems the seeds of discontent were sowed into Amir when the first MQA debunking video came out. I've spoken and told Amir about the problem I think he has concerning him not having any real qualms with MQA existing in it's current state (he actually doesn't have a problem with MQA existing, which I tried explaining to him was a pretty senseless position for him to take based on the arguments he rendered like for example: "I have Roon, and I'm not paying for MQA").

There were lots of people taken aback why Amir wasn't warm to the MQA debunk video. He seemingly buys the pro-MQA argument about how the encoder shouldn't be expected to perform any better with the limited sneaky tones testing Golden managed to slip past the walled garden.

There were other little dumb points about his defense of MQA I was interacting with him about. Though again, another armchair take: Amir's past and prior statements indicate his favoritism for proprietary format approaches (he tried to get such a thing going during his time at Microsoft, which I am happy failed fortunately from my perspective). Likewise he hold the head of MQA in high regard for some of his contributions to audio research papers.

Now don't misunderstand me, Amir utterly rejects some of the idiotic claims MQA makes about the whole "being lossless" or being able to guarantee studio reference masters are being provided. He just seemingly doesn't take issue with MQA as a business venture, nor does he see it as a problem (surprisingly even after people told him that lossless files on Tidal are disappearing since MQA's introduction as Golden's video also showed). He still thought at that time it's not really a problem.

----------------------------------------------------

I'm not sure if you said that I said Golden is a problem, but just like anyone in the real world or online. Be it Amir or Golden, or anyone else - they can say something kinda senseless, and sometimes they can say things quite profound. Not a fan of pigeon-holing anyone into a particular category to perpituity (in the same way that reddit clown I tried to roast is more than free to come here and make a defense of his position, and if it ends up being good, I'll gladly shift my opinion of the person). Likewise I hope if I say stupid things, people don't take me to be an utter idiot in every fiber of my being. I'd be thrilled if someone could roast me in the way I sometimes go off roasting others. Maybe get me to change a position I realize is actually dumb that I may hold.

Then again.. who the heck would waste away so much of their finger tips typing as much as do sometimes like this -.-

Now I feel like an actual dummy.
 

Tks

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Regardless of the interpersonal drama, it appears that some shenanigans may have been inserted into the testing process as a result of some questionable Soncoz hardware or firmware revisions that were not effectively communicated to their buyers and owners. That doesn't appear to be a good way to conduct business, if true.

GoldenOne has documented some measurement discrepancies on this component that should trouble objective audio customers. The other stuff, like Reddit posts, is not worthy of comment. This thread, https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...rement-discrepancies.11115/page-3#post-360066, is worth reading through. These aren't subjectivist complaints; they're valid issues being raised by measurement nerds.

Just a little nitpick, those issues raised, aren't about diagnosing measurement discrepancies (since the existence of these, were seen even before Golden thought about getting an AP), the complaints seem to be used to champion arguments against ones integrity. The worst are claiming blatant corruption (backroom deals with companies sending review units.

If anyone on SBAF wants to be the new spearhead of a higher standard of measurements (by only buying retail units for testing), they're more than free to do so. It still changes nothing from Amir's angle since he discloses where a device comes from etc.. and conflicts of interest disclosed (they're even disclosed when a random forum member sends in a device, if it's a brand his home installation company serves).

If Amir doesn't want to purchase triplicate units to confirm prototype/golden samples aren't occurring, or sending spies to the headquarters to the brands he reviews so they can leak firmwares and sneak out some hardware in the labs - that's his prerogative. There's still more legwork one would need to do to claim anything more than "Amir's standards could be higher". If other "measurement nerds" care about things like integrity, they're free to seek it anywhere where they feel it's better served. But simply stating someone else "does it better" or "could do it more professionaly" isn't a sound argument that Amir isn't doing it good in general.
 
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amirm

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Read the thread, Amir. Look at the test reports. They're damning.
I have. Multiple times. So I ask again, what is damning?
 
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amirm

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Regardless of the interpersonal drama, it appears that some shenanigans may have been inserted into the testing process as a result of some questionable Soncoz hardware or firmware revisions that were not effectively communicated to their buyers and owners.
Shenanigans? There is nothing remotely like that going on here. As I explained company decided to update the hardware post my review to improve it. They put the fix out there for the world to use and copy. Any regular reader of the forum would have known about this and if not, would see it from the threads here. I never published an update for the second revision so there should not have been any expectation of performance from our end.

The only miss is that for some period, hardware was shipped with firmware which had higher distortion. It took me a few days to figure this out with a unit in hand and communication with the company. The other folks measuring could have done the same and got to the same resolution I have. They did not so we would up spending resources and money to get it done. I don't mind that but seriously mind your characterization and that of the company.
 

MaxBuck

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This is BS. If you have something to say . . . then say it. Making a nebulous passive-aggressive post is a troll tactic. Step up or step out.
I said everything that needed to be said. Soncoz failed to inform its customers of changes in its equipment that adversely affected its performance, and that required obscure firmware changes to correct -- changes that were apparently communicated only after other technicians ran the same tests that @amirm ran and uncovered the inferior performance.

What's BS is your insinuation that I have motives beyond holding a supplier accountable. However, let me clarify that "shenanigans" was not intended to reflect upon @amirm or his testing. No one can expect him to find instances of supplier inconsistencies; he's testing individual examples.
 
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respice finem

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People base their whole identities around the crappy toys and trinkets they buy and then seethe when it's exposed. They personally take offense because they have incorporated ownership of that product into their personality so any slight against the product is a slight against them.
Maybe it explains why so few women are "audiophile". Women grow up, men just get older :D
But seriously: I'm saying, when I see something like the test of my Beyerdynamic T1 :facepalm:, learning is always good.
At least I won't ever again spend money for a HP not independently tested.
 
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solderdude

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I actually don't know what GoldenOne has to do with it

He measured the same DAC but at different settings of the AP555X he just got and posted the results at SBAF.
Though the results are indeed poorer (as confirmed by Amir in this thread) and he was correct in posting it, the thread turned in the usual Amir bashing.
Someone on Reddit picked it up and used non averaged measurements from GoldenOne to make a case. Because of incorrect settings it looked worse. That's got nothing to do with GoldenOne and the critique about the DAC is valid.
Now, you can't expect a young economics graduate to fully grasp how to use an AP555x so he has some things to learn (don't we all ?).

I personally found his MQA bit wonderfully presented and think he is right. I can also understand Amir's admiration for MQA.
The real proof of the pudding would be lab conditions blind tests between MQA and WAV though.

GoldenOne mentioned he would do the blind test anyway and would donate funds he would get from sponsors. I am quite certain he would absolutely fail that particular blind test. no surprise... no public blind test. He probably tried it and failed is my assumption but in that case he learned something which was my goal.

No doubt he is being honest in what he does. So is Amir. At best, under equal circumstances testing the same gear the results from Amir, Marv and Goldenone should be the same.
Differences can come from: Models that are cherry picked vs mass production, tolerances of parts, different test attributes used (Marv), different settings used, different levels used (Marv) or different ways to report.

Amir tries, Marv tries and GoldenOne tries and happen to use the same AP555X
 
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