Replacing my A-S701 for something smaller. Class-D?

[zaitz]

Hey folks!

So… I have to swap out my amp because of new furniture (yeah, I know…). The catch is that the new space only fits something up to 40 cm wide. Since most normal A/B amps are as chunky as my current Yamaha A-S701, I’ve started digging into Class-D options.

The amp will be powering my Monitor Audio Silver 10s (90 dB). I’ve been checking out the huge SMSL lineup, but a lot of them are labeled as “desktop amps” even though some come with remotes, which just confuses me more.

Can you recommend an integrated amp or an amp + DAC combo that could handle my setup? There are so many models out there that I’m getting completely lost. Budget is around €1000.


Thanks!

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi,
Plenty of options (which gets confusing). Some more detail would be useful - what sources do you use and do you have any preferences?

I'll start you off though, with a suggestion to look at the WiiM Amp Pro or WiiM Amp Ultra.
Decent power, especially since you have sensitive speakers, transparent DAC, great streamer and - icing on the cake - room correction / EQ

As I said, plenty of other options too

 

[DVDdoug]

I think "desktop" just refers to the size Class-D amps are usually a lot lighter weight and often smaller than class A/B amps (for the same power).

Your Yahama is an "integrated amplifier" which is a power amp (speaker amp) combined with a preamp.

A preamp is mainly a "control center" with multiple inputs, tone controls, and a volume control, etc. ...Most of the time preamps are attenuating rather than amplifying except for the phono input which is a high-gain preamp. But the line inputs do have available gain if/when you need it.

A lot of the "desktop amps" blur the line.

Integrated amps or separate preamps aren't as common as receivers which include a tuner, preamp, and power amp. An AVR (audio video receiver) includes more "stuff". Receivers are mass-produced and mass-marketed so they tend to be the most economical solution but usually they aren't compact.

 

[zaitz]

Thanks for the clarification — and also for the WiiM recommendation.

Now, as I understand it, many Class-D amps provide more power per channel than my Yamaha, so they should get just as loud, or even louder, right? Not that loudness is the main priority, but if there’s a party once in a while, the system shouldn’t perform worse than the Yamaha (which I was perfectly happy with).

Since the WiiM Amp is below my budget, I’m wondering if there’s something nicer available. An integrated streamer does sound appealing, though I’m not a fan of constantly fiddling with sound settings or room correction. My Yamaha has always been set to "Pure Direct" with everything flat, and it sounds great to me.

 

[DVDdoug]

many Class-D amps provide more power per channel than my Yamaha, so they should get just as loud, or even louder, right?

Right! And if you don't turn it up and use the extra power it doesn't make any difference. But it would be more precise to say "louder without distortion". If you over-drive an amplifier into Clipping (distortion) it keeps getting louder because the even though the peaks are clipped the average power/loudness goes up.

A lot of people will claim that "extra headroom" improves the sound but it's a myth. If you don't use the headroom you don't need it. And if you use it, it's no longer headroom!

 

[Power Pop 23]

Thanks for the clarification — and also for the WiiM recommendation.

Now, as I understand it, many Class-D amps provide more power per channel than my Yamaha, so they should get just as loud, or even louder, right? Not that loudness is the main priority, but if there’s a party once in a while, the system shouldn’t perform worse than the Yamaha (which I was perfectly happy with).

Since the WiiM Amp is below my budget, I’m wondering if there’s something nicer available. An integrated streamer does sound appealing, though I’m not a fan of constantly fiddling with sound settings or room correction. My Yamaha has always been set to "Pure Direct" with everything flat, and it sounds great to me.

EDIT - welcome to ASR !

Another recommendation for a WiiM Amp, WiiM Amp Pro, or WiiM Amp Ultra. Running their room correction can be a 'once and done' job that takes a few minutes. I perceived greater clarity afterwards with my WiiM Amp.

 

[Roland68]

Thanks for the clarification — and also for the WiiM recommendation.

Now, as I understand it, many Class-D amps provide more power per channel than my Yamaha, so they should get just as loud, or even louder, right? Not that loudness is the main priority, but if there’s a party once in a while, the system shouldn’t perform worse than the Yamaha (which I was perfectly happy with).

Since the WiiM Amp is below my budget, I’m wondering if there’s something nicer available. An integrated streamer does sound appealing, though I’m not a fan of constantly fiddling with sound settings or room correction. My Yamaha has always been set to "Pure Direct" with everything flat, and it sounds great to me.

Just ignore the term "desktop"; it's only about the size and whether it's suitable for a desk. Otherwise, there are no limitations if the features are sufficient for your needs.

As an alternative to the A-S701, the Sabaj A30a immediately comes to mind, which I used to replace my A-S1000 in a system.
It comes with a remote control, one analog and several digital inputs, more power, is relatively small, and doesn't require an additional DAC.

 

[Sokel]

People, apart from anything else OP mentioned parties once in a while.

Are you sure you want to recommend him gear with limited thermals?

 

[zaitz]

As for background: I use digital inputs 99% of the time, mainly from the TV via Toslink. If the future amp has streaming built in, then I’d use it for Spotify — I don’t have a computer connected for lossless audio. But when Spotify HD eventually arrives, I’ll definitely switch to it.

My music taste is diverse, so there’s nothing specific to point out. As for the “party” scenario mentioned earlier — in reality that almost never happens, and I rarely turn the Yamaha even halfway up. Still, I’m very interested in getting good,
clear, and wide sound.

The Sabaj A30a looks very smart in the looks department also - thanks!

Right! And if you don't turn it up and use the extra power it doesn't make any difference. But it would be more precise to say "louder without distortion". If you over-drive an amplifier into Clipping (distortion) it keeps getting louder because the even though the peaks are clipped the average power/loudness goes up.

A lot of people will claim that "extra headroom" improves the sound but it's a myth. If you don't use the headroom you don't need it. And if you use it, it's no longer headroom!

Thanks for clearing up the headroom myth — I was also under the belief that using an amp with more power than the speaker’s recommended rating was beneficial!

 

[DanielT]

Hey folks!

So… I have to swap out my amp because of new furniture (yeah, I know…). The catch is that the new space only fits something up to 40 cm wide. Since most normal A/B amps are as chunky as my current Yamaha A-S701, I’ve started digging into Class-D options.

The amp will be powering my Monitor Audio Silver 10s (90 dB). I’ve been checking out the huge SMSL lineup, but a lot of them are labeled as “desktop amps” even though some come with remotes, which just confuses me more.

Can you recommend an integrated amp or an amp + DAC combo that could handle my setup? There are so many models out there that I’m getting completely lost. Budget is around €1000.


Thanks!

Your Monitor Audio Silver 10 speakers seem to be a relatively simple load for an amp. Plus fairly high sensitivity means that you don't need that much power. Around 50 watts is enough for normal listening volume (it also gives some amp headroom).
However, if you want to play at really high volume, the manufacturer states that you can feed them with 200 watts. So it depends a bit on what you're looking for.

Monitor Audio Silver 10 Speaker System Test Bench

L/R Sensitivity: 88.5 dB from 500 Hz to 2 kHz Center Sensitivity: 89 dB from 500 Hz to 2 kHz Surround Sensitivity: 88 dB from 500 Hz to 2 kHz

www.soundandvision.com

There are plenty of class D amps, within your budget, that would be able to power up your speakers with flying colors.
Think about what features you want plus whether a possible load dependent class D amp is something that bothers you or not (if it's even audible). However, there are now some small class D amps that are not load dependent (have a straight FR) by the way.

EDIT - welcome to ASR !

Another recommendation for a WiiM Amp, WiiM Amp Pro, or WiiM Amp Ultra. Running their room correction can be a 'once and done' job that takes a few minutes. I perceived greater clarity afterwards with my WiiM Amp.

Those were good suggestions.

 

[DanielT]

Thanks for clearing up the headroom myth — I was also under the belief that using an amp with more power than the speaker’s recommended rating was beneficial!

As @DVDdoug says, if you don't need headroom then it's overkill to have but how do you know if you need some amp power headroom or not? Or call it a fair amount of power, if the term headroom seems strange to use.

 

[Sokel]

As @DVDdoug says, if you don't need headroom then it's overkill to have but how do you know if you need some amp power headroom or not? Or call it a fair amount of power, if the term headroom seems strange to use.

Unless he defines the Peak SPL (Z) that he ever need, anything else is speculation.
ASR is about numbers, if we have them we can work on them.

Yep, a lot will say that 100W/4 Ohm is plenty, blah,blah.
Now, put this gear at 4 meters, RC it, EQ it, add a couple of friends in the mix and play some bass heavy or some classical (its dynamic needs is worst when you're with friends, trust me, I know) at reference level (the normal, not Dominus) .

 

[DanielT]

Unless he defines the Peak SPL (Z) that he ever need, anything else is speculation.
ASR is about numbers, if we have them we can work on them.

Yep, a lot will say that 100W/4 Ohm is plenty, blah,blah.
Now, put this gear at 4 meters, RC it, EQ it, add a couple of friends in the mix and play some bass heavy or some classical (its dynamic needs is worst when you're with friends, trust me, I know) at reference level (the normal, not Dominus) .

Or as I, with 90 dB sensitive speakers, and live in an apartment. Neighbors to consider. Normally I power them up with either a 30 watt receiver or a 70 watt amp. But right now a 200 watt power amp:

Spoiler: Fostex 600 power amp

Power amplifier Fostex 600?

(not mine in the picture, same modell) Anyone have experience with, know anything about a vintage power amplifier Fostex 600? https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/fostex/600.shtml Got it very cheap this summer. It's right with my friend for a recap operation now. I'll see how it turns...

www.audiosciencereview.com

With my conditions, 30 watts or 200 watts makes no difference. I can't use the 200 watts anyway, ..or? BUT if I play very dynamic music, well I mean if I still have that power amp why not be on the "safe side"?
The speakers would break if I fed them with 200 RMS. Plus the health of my ears and the neighbors wouldn't like it. Dynamic peaks on the other hand.
There was a bit of back and forth reasoning, or waffle if you will.The most important thing is that TS needs to think about what he wants, what kind of music he listens to (is it very dynamic?/high crest factor?) plus what you mention.
Edit
Or rather what TS mentions ..but if there’s a party once in a while, the system shouldn’t perform worse than the Yamaha (which I was perfectly happy with).
If performance in this case refers to amp power, a lot of smaller class D amps (with small power supply) fall out as alternatives.

 

[HalSF]

This thread’s discussion of the term “desktop amp” feels quite relevant to me, since I just retired my big, heavyweight, older Musical Fidelity A/B integrated and replaced it with a Fosi ZA3 Class D amp. To take this step I had to dismiss the drumbeat of numerous review comments referring to the ZA3 as “desktop oriented” (as Amir put it), and therefore implicitly appropriate only for “small systems” and not something to take seriously as the amplifier in a serious hi-fi array — which is how I’m happily using it.

As relativity inexpensive but high-performance Class D amps continue to improve, I hope the somewhat misleading and condescending “desktop” descriptor disappears. I think WiiM, for example, has been doing a good job of escaping the “desktop” ghetto and being appreciated as a serious, credible hi-fi player, not a toy or entry-level stereo component.

 

[zaitz]

This thread’s discussion of the term “desktop amp” feels quite relevant to me, since I just retired my big, heavyweight, older Musical Fidelity A/B integrated and replaced it with a Fosi ZA3 Class D amp. To take this step I had to dismiss the drumbeat of numerous review comments referring to the ZA3 as “desktop oriented” (as Amir put it), and therefore implicitly appropriate only for “small systems” and not something to take seriously as the amplifier in a serious hi-fi array — which is how I’m happily using it.

As relativity inexpensive but high-performance Class D amps continue to improve, I hope the somewhat misleading and condescending “desktop” descriptor disappears. I think WiiM, for example, has been doing a good job of escaping the “desktop” ghetto and being appreciated as a serious, credible hi-fi player, not a toy or entry-level stereo component.

You’re absolutely correct about the “desktop,” “entry-level,” and even “toy” labels. When I look up reviews, the WiiM Amp is often described as a capable unit for pairing with entry-level speakers. That’s a bit off-putting for me, since I’m not looking to downgrade my listening experience — I want to upgrade it as much as possible.

After looking into the WiiM Amp Ultra, I’m still a bit hesitant, but I’m already leaning in that direction.

 

[Chr1]

Personally I associate the term "desktop amp", with an amp with a small form factor, that is fine as long as you don't require it to put out most of it's power, for any long duration.

Small spaces, efficient speakers, and relatively low SPLs are all ok.
Anything more and it may shut down.

Very wide generalisations, I know.

Anyway, not sure if this applies to the WiiM products or not. Would be curious to know.

 

[RPoitou]

Here's my little Class D experience story for you - 6 years ago I bought a Tangent Ampster (2 x 50w into 4 ohms) at the time supposed to be €200 but I got it for €105 in a sale. It was obtained for the optical connection from the TV but my wife disliked the remote so much it was replaced with a big traditional 100w pch 'receiver'. However now for the relevant part ... the Tangent has been used for party duty since then, here and at a neighbours place, each time I slipped a large fan 'laptop cooler' underneath it and it still lives! In a party situation the onset of audible distortion is perhaps more evident than with a big class AB amp but remembering that twice the 'volume level' needs 10 times the power those 50w pch seemed pretty loud.

 

[zaitz]

Let me rephrase: I use my TV as my main source 99% of the time. That means TV, YouTube, and the Spotify app on the TV (LG C2 OLED), so as far as I can tell, I’ve already got the streaming part covered via the TV.

Now, looking at the previously mentioned Sabaj A30a and SMSL VMV A2 — would either of these outperform the WiiM Amp Ultra? And what setup would you choose (or do you currently use) in a similar situation?

 

[HalSF]

Personally I associate the term "desktop amp", with an amp with a small form factor, that is fine as long as you don't require it to put out most of it's power, for any long duration.

Small spaces, efficient speakers, and relatively low SPLs are all ok.
Anything more and it may shut down.

Very wide generalisations, I know.

Anyway, not sure if this applies to the WiiM products or not. Would be curious to know.

The association you’re mentioning seems to be widely shared in terms of power concerns and a small Class D physical form factor being conflated. Much of the discussion about my new amp, the Fosi ZA3, is dominated by the option to buy two and run then as monoblocks. But as far as I can tell the single stereo ZA3 I own is more than capable of driving my MoFi SourcePoint 8 speakers to very loud, dynamic levels with plenty of power to spare and no sign of strain in my medium-sized listening space.

The WiiM amp in my living room seems a little more power-constrained but I rarely use that system to crank things up to the max.

 

[TankTop]

NAD M10 or C700 do everything including HDMI, dual sub outs and DIRAC. Swiss Army knives of the audio world