Replacement for Schiit Stack

[MajorX99]

Hello all,
new member here. I hope this is the right place otherwise please move the thread to an appropriate forum.
I recently got the Beyerdynamic T1 (2nd Gen) to improve on my tried & tested DT880 headphones, I'm also thinking of getting the HD650 in the future.
I had previously used an FiiO E10K Olympus 2 as dac/amp für my DT880 on my pc. With the T1's I wanted to improve my dac/amp combo (better dac and more power to drive the headphones).
So I looked for reviews and in a lot of places the Schiit Modi 2/ Magni 3 stack was recommended to me. So I ended up getting the Schiit stack. Seeing the measurements and reviews on this site (thank you for the data) - I'm less than impressed.
Since I still have to possibility to return the Schiit stack I'd like to ask what would be the recommended dac/amp combo I should get (maybe up to 350$)? I only use it stationary with the usb ouput of my workstation. Or should I just stick with the Schiit stuff ?

Thanks for your help.

 

[Grave]

Topping D30/A30.

 

[derp1n]

Stick with what you have unless you can hear something wrong with it.

 

[Sythrix]

The Modi 2 DAC I would probably replace ASAP, just because its performance is so abysmal and it has so much jitter. However, I think the Magni 3 actually measured OK, so unless you see any obvious problems with it (Amir's started smoking) then I would focus on getting a quality DAC.

and more power to drive the headphones

The Magni 3 can already drive your headphones to over 125 dB. I wouldn't recommend getting anywhere near that loud, so you don't need more power unless you want to see if you can blow them up approaching the 127 dB mark (Yes, you really don't get much louder than that before you will blow the headphones*).

The Master List is a good place to peruse if you're hunting decent measurements.

EDIT: *based on the 300 mW power handling capacity, @ 600 ohms.

 

[yue]

your fiio e10k is already good enough. expensive equipments only offers more features (more connections such as coxial or toslink, more supported formats like DSD), but marginal/no audible sound quality improvements. save those money for a better headphone.

One thing I recommend you trying is to buy or assemble an a/b test switch. It makes it easier to do a/b test with same headphone using different dac/amp combo.
use a software that can output to two dacs simultaneously, such as MPD, and switch between the output of two dac/amp combo.
If you can't tell the difference reliably with your music collection at same normal listening volume. You just need to choose the cheapest one.

I find it most enjoyable listening while reading the conductor score of the music. Even the computer headphone jack from my laptop is good enough for me to appreciate music. I seldom understand why people spend $300+ on dac/amps

 

[MajorX99]

Topping D30/A30.

Thank you for the input. That combo looks attractive and seems to be priced quite competetive, do you know where to get it in Europe ? I just found a trading Shenzhen offer on Amazon (Germany) but it will take at least 4 weeks for shipping.

Stick with what you have unless you can hear something wrong with it.

Well I can still return the Schiit stack, so it won't really hurt me money wise. And my Magni is vibrating on top of my Modi DAC which lead me to check more measurements in the first place. It's not audible but it just makes me question my purchase.

The Modi 2 DAC I would probably replace ASAP, just because its performance is so abysmal and it has so much jitter...

Thank you for the input, when I return the Modi I'll have to send it via package to schiit-europe anyway so returning the Magni wouldn't create extra effort. Oh and the more power thing - I meant more power than the FiiO E10K could provide, the Magni has more than enough power for my needs, I've actually not gone over 60% on the volume knob (with 100% Windows volume)...

 

[Sythrix]

I meant more power than the FiiO E10K could provide, the Magni has more than enough power for my needs, I've actually not gone over 60% on the volume know (with 100% Windows volume)...

I see that now. Was reading back through your post and didn't pay enough attention.

 

[MajorX99]

your fiio e10k is already good enough...

Thank you for your input, I had never any complaints about the FiiO sound. Imo it just struggles to power my Beyerdynamic T1s. I have to turn the volume up almost all the way when watching some movies/tv-series. I'd like to have some more headroom available - especially because everybody is saying how hard to drive the HD650s are (is that true objectivly?).

 

[Sythrix]

(is that true objectivly?)

Depends on how high you want to go, but yeah, they're harder to drive.

For instance, at 110 dB, you would need about 3 times more power (17 mW vs 6 mW) but at 100 dB you only would need about twice as much power.

EDIT: Vs your T1s

 

[amirm]

I will be posting the review of Topping A30 against Magni 3 tomorrow and will do a comparison between A30+D30 and Modi 2+Magni 3.

 

[MajorX99]

Depends on how high you want to go, but yeah, they're harder to drive.
For instance, at 110 dB, you would need about 3 times more power (17 mW vs 6 mW) but at 100 dB you only would need about twice as much power.
EDIT: Vs your T1s

Thanks then an amp comparably to the output of the Magni would be absolutely enough for my listening preferences.

I will be posting the review of Topping A30 against Magni 3 tomorrow and will do a comparison between A30+D30 and Modi 2+Magni 3.

Wow thanks, if that isn't perfect timing. So A30/D30 is basically the recommendation ? Are there any alternatives (as is posted earlier a30/d30 are somewhat difficult to procure in a timely fashion) ? Maybe the Objective2/ODAC combo ?

I've read the articles in the Master List and the "iFi iDSD Black Edition" was THE recommended choice - its a little bit pricey though. Or is this something one only buys once like good headphones and uses for a long time?

 

[amirm]

I've read the articles in the Master List and the "iFi iDSD Black Edition" was THE recommended choice - its a little bit pricey though. Or is this something one only buys once like good headphones and uses for a long time?

That's my philosophy. I still have and use the DAC I bought almost 20 years ago!

 

[MajorX99]

Thats good to know, I hope I'll also be able to use the next combo for a long time.
I've decided to definitely return the Schiit stack. Now I'll see how the Review of the A30 goes. Also I'll look into the "iFi iDSD Black Edition" which is easily available in Germany and seems to fit my requirements pretty good. Any other alternatives I should be considering if I would be willing to go up to the 599 price range ?
Thank you everyone for answering all my questions!

 

[amirm]

The review is up! https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...g-a30-and-schiit-magni-3-headphone-amps.4024/

 

[manoy385]

If you want a portable amp/dac combo unit and also save a bit of money compared to the Schiit stack, I recommend the Topping NX4 DSD. I use mine with my Fostex T50RP which is harder to drive than the HD650 (which I also own), and it has no issues even on low gain. I have the dial set to 12 o' clock while playing music on foobar at 0db and it gets pretty loud. You lose the optical input of the Modi 2 but gain a bass boost switch, DSD support and portability. The NX4 DSD also doesn't mute it's line out when a headphone is plugged in allowing you to play through speakers without unplugging your headphone.

 

[yue]

Thank you for your input, I had never any complaints about the FiiO sound. Imo it just struggles to power my Beyerdynamic T1s. I have to turn the volume up almost all the way when watching some movies/tv-series. I'd like to have some more headroom available - especially because everybody is saying how hard to drive the HD650s are (is that true objectivly?).

You're probably doing it in the wrong . generally it should be loud enough even if you turn the volume half way in low gain.
redbook recommend using 2vrms as output level. halfway means 1vrms.
the sensitivity for HD650 is 103db/1vrms. this means you get 103db with halfway volume.

with volume knob all the way up you reach 2vrms, the power quadruples so you add 5 db. now you get 109db.
in addition, according to the spec shown in http://www.fiio.net/en/products/27/parameters if you set to high gain, it has extra 8.8db. so you get 118db in total.

if it doesn't meet your your listening level, probably a hearing test and hearing aid is needed...

 

[amirm]

if it doesn't meet your your listening level, probably a hearing test and hearing aid is needed...

Let's not go there please. Sensitivity numbers are for marketing. Who knows what conditions were used to get them, what frequency, etc.

 

[yue]

Let's not go there please. Sensitivity numbers are for marketing. Who knows what conditions were used to get them, what frequency, etc.

but it does say something. my HD6XX (identical to HD650) is much louder than my HD600. I once performed a test with 2vrms with some real popular music (loudness war), and it could go up to 105db+ with ease, with a head model and db meter.

even if we don't get marketed value, I can say for sure FiiO e10k can easily drive HD650 to 110db+ with good THD+N without clipping. long time listening under volume beyond 80 db is dangerous for human hearing. with 110db, 2 minutes exposure is likely to cause permanent hearing loss. I would not recommend anyone to listen to music at that dangerous level.

 

[amirm]

with 110db, 2 minutes exposure is likely to cause permanent hearing loss.

Occupational noise limits like what you state are based on just that: noise. Music is not noise. Peaks in music can last only milliseconds. They are far less "loud" than even pure tones let alone noise.

I have been in plenty of situations with SPL levels above that with no hearing loss, permanent or otherwise. It will take a ton of exposure to loud music before damage. Otherwise every person leaving a rock concert would be deaf.

Regardless, my point was that we don't want to get personal with others in this forum. If they want to get lessons about loudness limits, they will ask. Scolding them like children is not the way to get them to do something different.

 

[MajorX99]

If you want a portable amp/dac combo unit and also save a bit of money compared to the Schiit stack, I recommend the Topping NX4 DSD. I use mine with my Fostex T50RP which is harder to drive than the HD650 (which I also own), and it has no issues even on low gain. I have the dial set to 12 o' clock while playing music on foobar at 0db and it gets pretty loud. You lose the optical input of the Modi 2 but gain a bass boost switch, DSD support and portability. The NX4 DSD also doesn't mute it's line out when a headphone is plugged in allowing you to play through speakers without unplugging your headphone.

Thanks for the Input I will also look out for the NX4 and check its availability in Germany.

... even if we don't get marketed value, I can say for sure FiiO e10k can easily drive HD650 to 110db+ with good THD+N without clipping. long time listening under volume beyond 80 db is dangerous for human hearing. with 110db, 2 minutes exposure is likely to cause permanent hearing loss. I would not recommend anyone to listen to music at that dangerous level.

Thanks for the concern, but my hearing is quite fine (have to do regular checkups as a vol. firefighter ). Im able to listen to music plenty loud with the FiiO (via foobar, spotify etc.) - as I stated before when I watch movies/tv-series in the Plex player I need to turn the volume up to somwhere between 6 and 7 (out of 8 on high gain) in the Fiio, while my Windows Volume is up to 70% in some movies.
So depending on the movie and if I increase the volume over that level - youre absolutely right it's more than loud enough/unhealthy.

This is what I meant when I stated : " I have to turn the volume up almost all the way when watching some movies/tv-series. I'd like to have some more headroom available ". So I'd like to upgrade to a solution with more headroom available because I will also get some more power hungry headphones in the future. I'll keep the FiiO around for office duty anyway