Replace resistor by low-inductance resistor - Is it audible?

[georgeT]

He will if he ever performs a blind test. I can put a sticker on a speaker and say it has better parts and everyone will think it sounds better even though nothing is changed inside.

please test those spiffy "tube connectors" Danny raves about so we can put to rest all his nonsense claims.

 

[solderdude]

Listening tests are the only way to prove that they sound the same, there is no other way.

Only if these listening tests are done in a scientific way with rigor and statistic relevance.
When using the ears brain you are using a scientifically very unreliable 'measurement device'.

 

[Bruce Morgen]

Danny Richie from GR-Research will disagree with this review.

There's a reason Danny will never participate here or submit his modded speakers for NFS measurement. He's convinced that his CLIO system is "professional" and good enough. Furthermore, he not only purports that resistor swapping has an audible effect, he also touts his "Electra Cable Tube Connectors" as being audibly to superior to binding posts. It's hard to reconcile such stances with his otherwise seemingly very accomplished design skills, but there it is....

 

[Mnyb]

Listening test is only needed if there is a difference at all . In these case the measurement shows that’s there nothing .

Also things can be inferred from other tests otherwise one have to do the tedious work of blind tests everything.
Red cables vs blue cables anyone ?

Example if humans can’t hear 0,01%THD I does not matter how that’s achieved is it a DAC is it a preamp or an headphone amp is it tubes solid state IC or discrete ? Does not matter you still can’t hear it

 

[nicalexx]

Can the measurement of a single chassis not be considered a minimum phase system. In this case, the phase corresponds to the minimum phase and can therefore be derived directly from the frequency response. Will therefore not show any deviations.

However, since the tweeter measurements were made in dual channel mode, the complete phase information is available.
I don't know which representation you expect, so here are two representations.

The measured step response of the two resistors serial to the tweeter in near field (sand cast the green curve, MOX the yellow curve):
View attachment 55343

Same as above, but as group delay plot:
View attachment 55344

Thank you, I understand that I picked out the minutia in your testing, but I appreciate the time you took in doing this

 

[nicalexx]

I don't think you are as familiar as you hope.

A theoretical square wave or impulse has energy at infinite frequencies. We are in the real world, and any test signal is bandwidth limited. Sure, if you extend the bandwidth of the test out further the response change due to the inductor will be greater with increasing frequency. But at any given frequency, the response will be identical no matter what the stimulus waveform is. Using a square wave or impulse versus a swept sine will have exactly no effect on the change in response at any given frequency. The inductance value will not change depending upon the stimulus waveform.

The time domain and frequency domain anaylsies are duals of one another. Ignoring normalisation, the FT of a FT is the original signal. Changing domains is useful to make different aspects of the problem easier to manage with the tools at hand (be they mathematical or representational). but they do not affect the actual results.

I understand that we have limitations in the real world, maybe I assumed that people would have understood this with what I stated, I obviously assumed too much on your part, I'm sorry!

However, I wasn't going for a change in frequency response, but I don't have the capacity to change from frequency to time domain by just looking at a graph, I was intrigued by the idea of a different perspective on the same thing.

 

[Francis Vaughan]

However, I wasn't going for a change in frequency response, .

No, but you said a change in inductance, which is effectively the same thing. The inductance is not dependant upon the signal shape. (Not until you get to magnetostrictive properties or drive something well into its B/H curve. In a resistor neither are going to be an issue.)

 

[wwenze]

Yes but neither have the measurement folks. Measurement oriented people (and I am one) have the very same burden of proof. Yes we have proved that they measure the same but no one has proved that they sound the same.
Listening tests are the only way to prove that they sound the same, there is no other way.
Despite the fact that these measurements show no real change they can't prove you can not hear some difference for some reason yet to be understood or measured. Along the years of audio study many new measurement techniques have been added. Prior to them people were hearing this or that aspect of sound that at that time there was no way to measure and now there is. There may still be plenty more to understand. (And it is possible that there are aspects that can not be measured yet are real. The fact that this is always a real possibility IS what makes science a useful tool. Ultimately it IS open minded or it is not science but dogma)

Hmm we are in a bind here aren't we

This is like saying a piece of special stone increases your body temperature. Thermometers fail to pick up any difference. But you say you can feel it and the burden of proof is on the thermometer guys to prove it.

Oh wait but even if it isn't measurable using current equipment, blind testing still works. So this argument fails.

This person proved she can smell Alzheimer's in a proper blind testing and helped to forward medicine by creating new methods of detection. Why can't the stone seller?
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319589

 

[Snarfie]

Off the bucketlist thanx

 

[nicalexx]

No, but you said a change in inductance, which is effectively the same thing. The inductance is not dependant upon the signal shape. (Not until you get to magnetostrictive properties or drive something well into its B/H curve. In a resistor neither are going to be an issue.)

Then why do we have step response, impulse response, oscillation analysis, etc...? (Please don't answer) I feel we're going into arguing about semantics here, and I'd rather just step away before we completely and utterly misunderstand each other x

 

[Francis Vaughan]

This person proved she can smell Alzheimer's in a proper blind testing and helped to forward medicine by creating new methods of detection. Why can't the stone seller?
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319589

I think you linked to the wrong story. It wasn't Alzheimer's, it was Parkinson's. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-47627179
A really quite remarkable thing.

 

[Francis Vaughan]

For those puzzling about Fourier analysis and the duality of frequency and time

 

[ctrl]

The GR Research guy (along with some others in history) already showed the frequency response doesn't change much if at all. He also claimed the difference was very audible despite the measurements matching.
He made a set-up where one speaker has two crossovers inside. You can switch between them. If anyone has the gumption to try this, then that would be an excellent thing.
The main thing is that there are people saying measurements do not tell the whole story, so you therefore can not use them in this debate. It must ultimately be a listening test to determine if there are things happening that can not be measured (or measured as of yet)

Danny Richie from GR-Research will disagree with this review.

I think I once saw a video of "newrecordday" or something similar on Youtube.
I missed a few critical questions there, e.g. were the replaced parts measured and did the new parts have exactly the same values? As a rule of thumb, at least one digit behind the indicated component value - e.g. old 4,735 ohm, new 4.732.
As already written in the review the tolerances of sand cast resistors are usually 5%, which is clearly audible when installed in series to the tweeter (You will find the reasoning below).
The same applies to the audibility of component tolerances for capacitors installed in the tweeter circuit.


"The main thing is that there are people saying measurements do not tell the whole story..."
This is also the reasoning of the cable sound and capacitor sound fraction in the audio world. There it is mostly about previously undiscovered electrical phenomena.

That's the reason for the experimental setup with the tweeter and the measurement with the measuring microphone (I used the same setup for my condenser measurements, if there is time I'll post them in the forum).

To my knowledge there is nobody who would seriously claim that there are undiscovered possibilities of sound transmission (from tweeter to microfon).
Or that an exchange of resistors changes the radiation of the tweeter.

So the problem is reduced to the question "When do the measured effects become audible".

Here is a quote from Toole's book "Sound Reproduction

The simplest deviation from flat is probably a spectral tilt. There is some evidence that we can detect slopes of about 0.1 dB/octave...

So let's have a look at what can happen when a resistor with +-5% tolerance is replaced.
A resistor with 3.3 ohm can have the real values 3.14-3.47 ohm (0.33 ohm tolerance), a 6.8 ohm resistor 6.46-7.14 ohm (0.68 ohm tolerance).

We don't want to exhaust the limits completely, because this is not very likely, so we simulate with 0.27 and 0.56 ohm deviation. Let's simulate what happens when an ideal loudspeaker with LR4@2kHz crossover gets a slightly different value by replacing a resistor:

In both cases the change in slope is 0.1 dB or more per octave (e.g. from 2kHz to 4kHz). So the changes should be audible.

If you consider that there are also sand cast resistors with 10% tolerance, it should be clear that if you replace them with a resistor with 2% tolerance, it is very likely that there are audible changes - but these are only due to the different component values.

I shudder to think how many DIY projects may have under-rated resistors - possibly even commercial ones.

A friend of mine likes to listen his DIY hifi speakers very loud (he uses 2x1000W@4ohm 0,06 % THD+N).
This is what a 5.6 ohm 20W sand cast resistor serial to the midrange driver looks like afterwards, the applied hot glue is completely charred

...but the resistor survived it, nevertheless we changed to 2x20W sand cast resistors without using hot glue to fix them

 

[Milesian]

What’s the price difference between the two tested?

 

[rvsixer]

What’s the price difference between the two tested?

And a chart of it too

 

[ROOSKIE]

Hmm we are in a bind here aren't we

This is like saying a piece of special stone increases your body temperature. Thermometers fail to pick up any difference. But you say you can feel it and the burden of proof is on the thermometer guys to prove it.

Oh wait but even if it isn't measurable using current equipment, blind testing still works. So this argument fails.

This person proved she can smell Alzheimer's in a proper blind testing and helped to forward medicine by creating new methods of detection. Why can't the stone seller?
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319589

That is not a correct or logical analogy.

 

[tomtoo]

Yes but neither have the measurement folks. Measurement oriented people (and I am one) have the very same burden of proof. Yes we have proved that they measure the same but no one has proved that they sound the same.
Listening tests are the only way to prove that they sound the same, there is no other way.
Despite the fact that these measurements show no real change they can't prove you can not hear some difference for some reason yet to be understood or measured. Along the years of audio study many new measurement techniques have been added. Prior to them people were hearing this or that aspect of sound that at that time there was no way to measure and now there is. There may still be plenty more to understand. (And it is possible that there are aspects that can not be measured yet are real. The fact that this is always a real possibility IS what makes science a useful tool. Ultimately it IS open minded or it is not science but dogma)

It's very easy. Before we have to walk into the Land of Voodoo there is a procedure that can help. It's called Blindtesting.

 

[ROOSKIE]

It's very easy. Before we have to walk into the Land of Voodoo there is a procedure that can help. It's called Blindtesting.

Yes, that is what I said a few posts earlier.
Confirming by using measurements that we can not hear things outside of what is being measured is a false positive.

OK, so burden of proof isn't on people making the sonic claims that aren't borne out by measurement; no new measurements or actual listening tests by the folks who claim differences. Zero evidence for the claims, which contradict basic principles. And negatives must be proved.

My goodness. Classic Russell's Teapot.

The burden of proof is on anyone who actually wants to know what is true rather be right. It is very easy to be right, being true is a lot harder and it is in fact a burden. That is why I have not made these bind tests. I don't have the proper set up or situation. I am hoping to inspire someone who's mind is not set/stuck (and who has the mojo) to conduct the appropriate tests.
I would be try to help in some small way.
I personally really want to know what a proper blind/double blind test reveals.

You are also confusing "evidence" with "facts". While it is not a fact yet these differences are real, there is a ton of evidence that they may be, in the form of many claims by people who heard a difference. I have been into this hobby long enough to have researched this subject quite a bit and many, many people claim they have heard differences. Why that is we still don't know, only having conjecture thus far with many possibilities tossed around.
These people might be snakes or crazy or hopeful or able to hear it. (maybe a mix of all of this)

There's a reason Danny will never participate here or submit his modded speakers for NFS measurement. He's convinced that his CLIO system is "professional" and good enough. Furthermore, he not only purports that resistor swapping has an audible effect, he also touts his "Electra Cable Tube Connectors" as being audibly to superior to binding posts. It's hard to reconcile such stances with his otherwise seemingly very accomplished design skills, but there it is....

This cat is not the only quality designer to make similar claims. I have read articles and interviews with other respected designers who make similar claims. (and of course others who dispute these type of claims)
I have yet to find anyone to really put the cash and significant time to actually verify any of this (including myself).
Dannie sorta tried, he even sent a pair of modded speakers around the country for several years to try to back up his claims. This could be done scientifically through testing which is what science actually is. Measuring is only a part of science and think that often gets confused for real science because it is (in many cases)the much easier part.

 

[SIY]

You are also confusing "evidence" with "facts". While it is not a fact yet these differences are real, there is a ton of evidence that they may be, in the form of many claims by people who heard a difference. I have been into this hobby long enough to have researched this subject quite a bit and many, many people claim they have heard differences. Why that is we still don't know...

Multiple unsupported claims doesn't add up to even a picogram of evidence. Sorry, it's up to the magic peddlers, their "journalistic" enablers, and their marks to put up or shut up. They haven't and they won't.

 

[ctrl]

It is very easy to be right, being true is a lot harder and it is in fact a burden. That is why I have not made these bind tests. I don't have the proper set up or situation. ...

I have yet to find anyone to really put the cash and significant time to actually verify any of this (including myself). That GR research guy even sent a pair of modded speakers around the country for several years to try to back up his claims.

If the measurements show that there is no perceptible difference in the human auditory range when sand-cast resistors are exchanged for low-inductance resistors and an explanation is given for any differences heard (slight differences in the impedance values), then the burden of proof lies with those who still claim the opposite.

The mere fact that two loudspeakers have been sent (by GR research) shows that it was not really about clarifying possible component sound.

If you need a blind test, nothing easier than that. Lay the crossover of a loudspeaker to the outside, solder out the resistor located in the high frequency path and determine its impedance exactly. Select a better/worse resistor with exactly the same impedance value and integrate both resistors into the high frequency path via a (noiseless) switch.

Then you only need someone to switch...