• Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Replace resistor by low-inductance resistor - Is it audible?

The common denominator is that you have to draw on your experience through listening tests. It cannot be measured.

If you can, in reality, hear it in a controlled double blind test, that counts as a measurement. There is nothing that says a measurement has to be done with a mechanical device. But you need, no matter what, to be able to provide statistically meaningful results from a properly controlled experiment. As the aphorism goes - the plural of anecdote is not data.

This debate has gone on for decades. It is always the same story. Nothing changes. Indeed what is claimed in terms of sonic signatures for various resistors could have come verbatim from a conversation on rec.audio.high-end 25 years ago. I remember back then Vishay buk foil resistors as being the source of the sound of 80's HiFi. The same replies are still current. People fool themselves. You can't usefully tinker with an audio circuit and gain the experience unless you adopt a serious level of experimental discipline. ABX testing isn't a difficult regime to set up, but somehow tinkerers never seem to be prepared to go that last little bit.
But we do have measurement capability and sufficient understanding of the human audio system that together can provide an ironclad guarantee that some changes cannot, under any circumstances, be detected by ear. However there are no end of audio enthusiasts that prefer a coloured sound.

There are arguments about accuracy. Does it measure accurate or sound more like music? That is not a valid question, something that is often not appreciated. We know, a-priori that it isn't possible to capture and reproduce an acoustic with even the finest equipment possible. Everything you hear in your reproduction is a mix of engineering and aesthetic trade-offs. No doubt - some recordings don't sound all that great, and in your particular system, with your taste in sound expectations and experience, you may find some additional colouration makes the music come alive for you. Where this breaks down is that it is useless to assert that these particular colourations are the best, or will be preferred by others. There is however one simple common ground. No colouration. It may actually sound worse. But it is a common ground.

We know how to make amplifiers with provably no sonic colouration. They are neither complex or expensive by audiophile standards. Hypex, PuriFi, Douglas Self's designs, Neurochrome come to mind. There are others. But there remain a slew of deliberately coloured amplifier brands. We have seen a few here. They have a house sound (well some do). Some will admit to deliberate euphonious tweaks in the design. (AKSA for instance.) Some mumble about fairy dust. Trouble here is that ascribing to one specific component the sonic signature is very difficult. Once a design has been perturbed, there are many interacting aspects that come into play. Commonly these designs start with a low global feedback design. Then lots of competing effects come into play. Some parts of the circuit may act to counter distortions in another, and linearising that part may actually make things worse. Unless one has a detailed circuit model and can also measure things, one will have no idea what is going on.
 
If I write, it will come at some point, but first the problem / task must define with observer, such is science.

Not even vaguely.

Stop it.
 
The existence of these sonic differences needs to be verified with double blind ABX testing done at volume levels matched to 0.1dB of each other. Otherwise, it's just listener opinion or preference for a particular product.
 
Exactly zero audibility evidence. We already know that we have measurement capability that's astounding. Ask Jan if he thinks that (putting aside pathological cases of broken components) there's any audible significance to these measurements.

There is extensive evidence about the audibility of distortion.

Double blind testing.

GedLee has published multiple AES papers about the audibility of distortion. H2 and H3 distortions are masked by H1 or the fundamental test tone. H1 and H2 distortions are not audible well into double digit % level of distortion.

Higher level distortions; H4, H5 … are not masked, or not masked nearly so much as H2 and H3 distortions.

There is ABX testing of the audibility of distortion.

With the exception of carbon comp, resistors are not an issue or audible.



Noise is another matter.
 
There is extensive evidence about the audibility of distortion.
...
With the exception of carbon comp, resistors are not an issue or audible.

So what are you on about? This is exactly what we have been saying, and that the unsupported audibility claims being repeatedly tossed out are ridiculous.
 
So what are you on about? This is exactly what we have been saying, and that the unsupported audibility claims being repeatedly tossed out are ridiculous.

There is plenty of audibility evidence.

The evidence is that resistor distortion is primarily third harmonic with 2nd harmonic creeping in all down in the -150dB range.

Speaker testing shows distortion in the range of -40dB sometimes or in the 1 % range sometimes higher mostly lower.

GedLee has done ABX distortion testing and found that 2nd harmonic and 3rd harmonic is not audible until it is well over 10%.

So unless someone can ABX resistor distortion without the use of speakers or headphones resistor distortion is not audible.

Resistor noise is another story.
 
There is plenty of audibility evidence.

The evidence is that resistor distortion is primarily third harmonic with 2nd harmonic creeping in all down in the -150dB range.

Speaker testing shows distortion in the range of -40dB sometimes or in the 1 % range sometimes higher mostly lower.

GedLee has done ABX distortion testing and found that 2nd harmonic and 3rd harmonic is not audible until it is well over 10%.

So unless someone can ABX resistor distortion without the use of speakers or headphones resistor distortion is not audible.

Resistor noise is another story.

The AI needs some tweaking.
 
GedLee has published multiple AES papers about the audibility of distortion. H2 and H3 distortions are masked by H1 or the fundamental test tone. H1 and H2 distortions are not audible well into double digit % level of distortion.
That hugely depends on the SPL level. At low levels, 1% of any harmonic of 1 kHz tone can readily be detected. No luck at 120dBSPL (were you can only use short -- < 1s -- bursts to avoid instant hearing loss).
 
But what is so the explanation of Vishay Bulk also has a clear sound signature, not like carbon composition 'organic natural sound' but a more 'technically accurate' sound.
A Tantalum resistor has a third and again its very own sound signature, that's how one can go on.
The common denominator is that you have to draw on your experience through listening tests. It cannot be measured.
C'mon, not again these false claims. Just because you cannot measure it (or cannot imagine a way how to do) this does not mean we can't. We can.
Once this pandemic is over I could visit you in Hillerød and show you... and introduce you to live blind testing and all that. Once you are able to detect a sound change, from say, an interconnect cable in your system in a DBT then I can measure the difference in situ as well (DBT is needed to make sure any signal change actually is relevant and only then it makes sense to start to search for that difference technically).
 
I agree with SIY; we have instrumentation that can detect levels of distortion vastly below any human or other animal's hearing capability.
 
Yes you can measure measure resistor resistance. I have measured many resistors. See the Link previously posted. Some manufacturers even include resistor distortion measurements in their data sheets.

Thing is the FFT measurement method requires a bridge circuit to remove the noise. Real time the noise floor is much higher than the distortion. The noise completely hides the resistor distortion.
 
Vishay PTF resistors tested with the least distortion.

Vishay bulk metal film tested worse than CC resistors

Tested with a wheatstone bridge at 20 volts on a APx555 analyzer.

the 1000Hz test voltage is 20 volts the 1000Hz level on the plots is nulled because of the test bridge.
NiChorome MF 1000hZ 1M 20avr 20v.PNG
1000 hZ foil 1M 10 ave FFT.PNG
 
That hugely depends on the SPL level. At low levels, 1% of any harmonic of 1 kHz tone can readily be detected. No luck at 120dBSPL (were you can only use short -- < 1s -- bursts to avoid instant hearing loss).

This is not consistant with GedLee's AES papers.
 
Vishay PTF resistors tested with the least distortion.

Vishay bulk metal film tested worse than CC resistors

Tested with a wheatstone bridge at 20 volts on a APx555 analyzer.

the 1000Hz test voltage is 20 volts the 1000Hz level on the plots is nulled because of the test bridge.
View attachment 122010

Of course even in this 'worst' type of resistor with a 20V = +26dBV and 3rd harm. -105dBV is a distance of -131dB.
In order to detect that you would have to play at at least 130dB SPL. Me thinks this dwarfs the distortion of the speaker, amplifier and your ears.
 
Of course even in this 'worst' type of resistor with a 20V = +26dBV and 3rd harm. -105dBV is a distance of -131dB.
In order to detect that you would have to play at at least 130dB SPL. Me thinks this dwarfs the distortion of the speaker, amplifier and your ears.
Yes, well below human hearing sensitivity, decades below the distortion of the speaker drivers plus buried in the resistor noise floor.
solderdude, complete agreement.
 
Yes, well below human hearing sensitivity, decades below the distortion of the speaker drivers plus buried in the resistor noise floor.
solderdude, complete agreement.
So when you said, "There is plenty of audibility evidence," what you meant was, "There is no audibility evidence."
 
Back
Top Bottom