Replace OP amps. Completely pointless, or not?

[Mumbleypig]

True enough.

Personally though, I'd not bother. There is sufficient data to tell us that op amp rolling makes no audible difference unless they result in an unstable amp - which is definitely not an improvement.

I have heard some compelling reports that discrete op-amps can be much better than ic's. Are there any test results that you have seen?

 

[BDWoody]

I have heard some compelling reports that discrete op-amps can be much better than ic's. Are there any test results that you have seen?

Do these compelling reports include any measurements or data, or are they the typical anecdotal reports of blacker blacks and veils removed that even the wife in the kitchen could hear?

Have you read through the 30 pages of this thread?

 

[DanielT]

Modern class D amps and op amp rolling. It is extremely doubtful if it makes any difference other than to do something WORSE, if you don't know what you are doing.
But let's say something far from these amps: A Vacuum Tube Phono Equalizer Amplifier then? Well, if you check what technically fits in it, it can give this result:

Measured effect of op-amp rolling on a phono equalizer input-shorted noise

Op-amp rolling the stereo x LUXMAN LXV-OT10 Background Last month, I put together a Luxman "kit" phono equalizer and posted the measurements. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/luxman-lxv-ot10-phono-equalizer-amplifier-review-and-measurements.48055/ TLDR? The Luxman...

audiosciencereview.com

By the way. IF different types of OP amps were NOT needed, then there wouldn't be so many different ones made, BUT there is a whole big world outside Hifi with lots of different technical solutions, requirements and so on.

 

[antcollinet]

I have heard some compelling reports that discrete op-amps can be much better than ic's. Are there any test results that you have seen?

Did you check out the list in that link I gave?

At least the Oracle II 02 is discrete. No benefit.

There is no reason to believe a discrete design is going to be any better than an IC - in fact the opposite. It is much easier to get close component matching when they are on the same silicon than when not.

I've seen reports showing they are not giving any improvement (in addition to the one linked) but couldn't point you at them right now.

Let me re quote this:

Bear in mind most of the devices you would put one of these into is already outright audibly perfect (DACS), or audibly perfect in real world listening conditions (speaker amps). Even if it made a measurable difference it can't make something "more perfect"

 

[Mumbleypig]

Do these compelling reports include any measurements or data, or are they the typical anecdotal reports of blacker blacks and veils removed that even the wife in the kitchen could hear?

Have you read through the 30 pages of this thread?

It is from GR research. Since he is one to favor science, I put some stock in it.

 

[BDWoody]

It is from GR research. Since he is one to favor science, I put some stock in it.

Ahh...

The video you may have watched is linked towards the end of this thread:

Danny Richie's latest...

He did also find that people could prefer a different speaker when listening blind to what speaker they preferred when listening sighted. Which is really quite scary when you think about it. Trouble is the practical implementation is almost non-existent. We can't easily do blind testing when...

audiosciencereview.com

Starting at the beginning might be more enlightening.

 

[Killingbeans]

It is from GR research. Since he is one to favor science, I put some stock in it.

GR Research is known around here for favoring alchemy and pseudoscience to a much higher degree than actual science.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

It is from GR research. Since he is one to favor science, I put some stock in it.

I haven't come across any actual reports or papers from GR Research. To be fair, I haven't actively searched for them either. Do you have any links you could share?

 

[MAB]

I haven't come across any actual reports or papers from GR Research. To be fair, I haven't actively searched for them either. Do you have any links you could share?

He gets discussed here often, less so lately. His products occasionally are OK, but often veer to absurd, like $1000 bad sounding fullrangers:

GR Research LGK 2.0 Speaker Review (A Joke)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the GR Research "Little Giant Killer" (LGK) 2.0 bookshelf speaker. It comes in various forms from a kit ($313) to fully finished pair ($1,038). Our DIY expert @Rick Sykora built my sample using the flatpack ($100): Rick had to do the round over on...

www.audiosciencereview.com

People here make fullrangers that actually sound good for fractions.
These are particularly odd, with an even stranger back-story:

AV123 / GR Research X-Voce Speaker Review

This is a review, listening tests, EQ and detailed measurements of the AV123 hybrid open/closed baffle center speaker. It sold for $499 when the company was in business. GR Research seems to be selling the same speaker as a kit ($239 for pats, $250 for flat pack you assemble/finish). No, I...

www.audiosciencereview.com

This kit is actually an upgrade from the original:

GR Research Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade Review (speaker)

This is a review of a Klipsch RP-600M which has been upgraded to a new crossover, binding posts and "No Rez" by GR Research. The kit costs US $244. OK, so there is nothing externally which is different. :) I can't open the unit to show the different bits but here is the back with new binding...

www.audiosciencereview.com

It doesn't make sense to me for the cost. But people have upgrade fever, gives them a sense of accomplishment and participation in the creation of music I guess. Like everybody's online suggestions on improving instant cake mix.

He also modifies the crossovers of people's used speakers, sometimes even when the tweeters measure out of spec. I postulate the customer had old dried ferrofluid and just needed new tweeters, based on some experience. I worked at a very nice car stereo store in the '80s when measuring equipment was very limited, and we always measured customer's speakers and gear before beginning work. We also measured new components before install. I can't count how much time, money, and embarrassment this saved. Perhaps Danny could have benefitted from working in our shop.

He peddles the usual cable and component crap.
It seems to be a very good business for him.
That's my summary!

 

[Old_School_Brad]

He gets discussed here often, less so lately. His products occasionally are OK, but often veer to absurd, like $1000 bad sounding fullrangers:

GR Research LGK 2.0 Speaker Review (A Joke)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the GR Research "Little Giant Killer" (LGK) 2.0 bookshelf speaker. It comes in various forms from a kit ($313) to fully finished pair ($1,038). Our DIY expert @Rick Sykora built my sample using the flatpack ($100): Rick had to do the round over on...

www.audiosciencereview.com

People here make fullrangers that actually sound good for fractions.
These are particularly odd, with an even stranger back-story:

AV123 / GR Research X-Voce Speaker Review

This is a review, listening tests, EQ and detailed measurements of the AV123 hybrid open/closed baffle center speaker. It sold for $499 when the company was in business. GR Research seems to be selling the same speaker as a kit ($239 for pats, $250 for flat pack you assemble/finish). No, I...

www.audiosciencereview.com

This kit is actually an upgrade from the original:

GR Research Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade Review (speaker)

This is a review of a Klipsch RP-600M which has been upgraded to a new crossover, binding posts and "No Rez" by GR Research. The kit costs US $244. OK, so there is nothing externally which is different. :) I can't open the unit to show the different bits but here is the back with new binding...

www.audiosciencereview.com

It doesn't make sense to me for the cost. But people have upgrade fever, gives them a sense of accomplishment and participation in the creation of music I guess. Like everybody's online suggestions on improving instant cake mix.

He also modifies the crossovers of people's used speakers, sometimes even when the tweeters measure out of spec. I postulate the customer had old dried ferrofluid and just needed new tweeters, based on some experience. I worked at a very nice car stereo store in the '80s when measuring equipment was very limited, and we always measured customer's speakers and gear before beginning work. We also measured new components before install. I can't count how much time, money, and embarrassment this saved. Perhaps Danny could have benefitted from working in our shop.

He peddles the usual cable and component crap.
It seems to be a very good business for him.
That's my summary!

Oh. I know exactly who he is and what he does.

What I meant was that I have never seen an actual research paper or report from him, which @Mumbleypig hinted at.

 

[MAB]

What I meant was that I have never seen an actual research paper or report from him, which @Mumbleypig hinted at.

Duh.
I'm so thick sometimes...

 

[JSmith]

op amp

Is this the real life? Is this just op-amp-tasy?
Caught in a landslide, no escape from op-amp-ity
Open your eyes, look up to the skies and see,
I'm just an op-amp, I need no sympathy,
Because I'm easy come, easy go, little high, little low,
Any way the wind blows doesn't really matter to me, to me...


JSmith

 

[Old_School_Brad]

Duh.
I'm so thick sometimes...

No problem. I’m usually in power-saving mode myself..

 

[Cbdb2]

I haven't come across any actual reports or papers from GR Research. To be fair, I haven't actively searched for them either. Do you have any links you could share?

Dont expect to find any research from ZeRo Research.

 

[Killingbeans]

Some sort of comparing, but not really any testing.

 

[DavidM1]

Listening tests. I also have a link to the 24/192 files for another "sort" of comparison.

Curious as to what you are aiming for here. My impression is they sound exactly the same. Is there something in the design that suggests there should be an audible difference?

 

[DavidM1]

Aiming for??? I present two recordings for folks to listen to. Some hear a difference some don't. I hear better reverb tails and puncher well defined bass, if not, so be it. Curious as to why the first response is adversarial? Has all curiosity and decorum been lost? What are you aiming for????

Not all questions are adversarial. I am curious as to why someone does this. Is there something in the design that suggests there should be an audible difference?

 

[cprogrammer]

I couldn't make out anything from the video. The switching between the opamps are distant apart (many seconds) and hence I just cannot make out. If at all such a test should make sense, the A/B switching should be instantaneous back and forth. I doubt we human beings can retain a sound signature beyond few milliseconds. Any impression of the signature would be something made up by the brain.

 

[courtesy]

I couldn't make out anything from the video. The switching between the opamps are distant apart (many seconds) and hence I just cannot make out. If at all such a test should make sense, the A/B switching should be instantaneous back and forth. I doubt we human beings can retain a sound signature beyond few milliseconds. Any impression of the signature would be something made up by the brain.

Agreed, and the comparison should also be done double blind.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

That's my story and I am sticking with it.

Story indeed.

I haven't been following everything closely, but have you done a double-blind test to confirm what you believe you're hearing? Historically, claims of audible differences between opamps rarely hold up under rigorous double-blind testing, despite the many reports from people who claim to notice them.

And there's a twist here: if you swap in an op-amp that isn’t properly matched for the circuit, it might actually start oscillating, creating high-frequency harmonics that could be audible. Ironically, this unintended distortion could align with some common descriptions like "greater detail," "enhanced transparency," or "increased resolution.”