Repentant subjectivist

[Racheski]

This might be my favorite thread ever, so thank you to @Repentant subjectivist for your confessions. Question - one of the stereotypical criticisms of objectivists/ASR members is that we look at measurements all day and need to spend more time just "listening to the music, man." I believe it is the opposite; subjectivists listen to their gear while objectivists listen to the music. We are not constantly worrying whether we can squeeze 5% better SQ by upgrading our cables, rolling tubes, etc...as a former subjectivist what are your thoughts on this? Do you "listen to the music" more or less since converting?

 

[Repentant subjectivist]

This might be my favorite thread ever, so thank you to @Repentant subjectivist for your confessions. Question - one of the stereotypical criticisms of objectivists/ASR members is that we look at measurements all day and need to spend more time just "listening to the music, man." I believe it is the opposite; subjectivists listen to their gear while objectivists listen to the music. We are not constantly worrying whether we can squeeze 5% better SQ by upgrading our cables, rolling tubes, etc...as a former subjectivist what are your thoughts on this? Do you "listen to the music" more or less since converting?

I'm glad I'm not the only one that likes to discuss, read or talk about the subjectivist point of view - preferably in a slightly ridiculing fashion. It just feels so good to be on the other side of the fence.

My subjectivist view on ASR and FR graphs were, as I alluded to earlier, that they were simply used as a way to rationalize ones cheap equipment. So my view was that to claim any meaning beyond "this is a bit louder than this" from an FR graph was completely intellectually dishonest.

I think the "listen to the music, man" argument mostly stems from subjectivists trying to deflect a question or change topics. I see that happening a lot on for instance head-fi; once disagreements starts inching towards actually figuring something out, its best to fall back to "trust your ears!" or "Hey, at the end of the day, its about enjoying the music!".

As for me.. I can actually remember a big sense of relief at some point, I can't exactly remember when, but at some point once I started understanding that the whole hobby was essentially just bullshit, I got a big sense of relief that wow, the journey is over. I can just enjoy the music now. And I can remember several times when I was a subjectivist having the feeling that I had lost the ability to just focus on the music. Every listening session I was so obsessed on focusing on the details I thought I was hearing from the equipment. Many times I thought to myself "at the end of the day, this is all about the music", before going back to thinking about exactly how crisp and clean my headphones COULD be sounding if I had a huge tube amplifier with an external power supply.

Since seeing the light, I feel I can both enjoy the very crisp, detailed sound from my headphones, while simultaneously focus on the actual music. I no longer feel that I need to constantly swap tracks to find samples or instruments that really "makes my headphones shine" - instead, I can just listen to whatever music I am legitimately enjoying at the moment. Back in the day, I would be way more focused on matching the music to my equipment. If I were to draw any positives from that, it is that I discovered a lot of good music during this time. Unfortunately, most of the time I forced myself listening to Jazz tracks I didn't really care about because some reputable user on head-fi had commented how exquisite it sounded on equipment x or y. Diana Krall and Norah Jones are typical artists which, while I think they are pretty decent, I have listened to far more than my musical taste actually calls for. Simply because of how "magical" their voices sounded on the soulful LCD 2s, for instance.

 

[Inner Space]

And the objectivists just weren't hardcore enough, and hadn't heard it with their own eyes.

This one-liner is a great summation of the subjectivist view.

 

[2M2B]

On of the most shocking effects were when I started frequenting SBAF. The users there were particularly elitist, something I fell for hook line and sinker. So when the users started talking about how "multibit" was the true window into a nice sound without all that delta sigma glare, preferably through a schiit eitr, I was sold.

At the time I received the modi multibit and schiit eitr, I think it was probably the most impactful upgrade I had ever made to my system - and only for a couple of hundred bucks!!! Incredible! I think I described it as a much more spacious sound, with zero treble fatigue and more punch. I had imagined that this was probably what it would sound like, and it delivered. It held so much weight because I thought the SBAF users were the true heroes of the hobby, with little to no bias. LOL

SBAF is a troll pit, Take anything they say with huge heaps of salt. Since they'll gladly make stuff up to avoid looking like morons which Is the issue with hard subjectivists. Over there they still think DAC's are sound cards with EQ preset, No idea why they bother with charts since they just bash them when a thread talks about charts. The Fiio E10K costs £59 yet I trust It over the DACs that cost more than £150, Thinking of pairing a JDS atom amp since I'm thinking of getting the HD560S & 100 ohm cable for my ER4PT.


Reddit, Head Fi, SBAF got very hostile when the 4+ reviews here showed many £1200+ Headphones were not even worth there price & were poorly made. If were being objective here the HD560S/ER4SR with EQ would be a much better deal, Since the ER4 with a 6db bass boost sounds better than the past IEM's i tried.

 

[Repentant subjectivist]

SBAF is a troll pit, Take anything they say with huge heaps of salt. Since they'll gladly make stuff up to avoid looking like morons which Is the issue with hard subjectivists. Over there they still think DAC's are sound cards with EQ preset, No idea why they bother with charts since they just bash them when a thread talks about charts. The Fiio E10K costs £59 yet I trust It over the DACs that cost more than £150, Thinking of pairing a JDS atom amp since I'm thinking of getting the HD560S & 100 ohm cable for my ER4PT.


Reddit, Head Fi, SBAF got very hostile when the 4+ reviews here showed many £1200+ Headphones were not even worth there price & were poorly made. If were being objective here the HD560S/ER4SR with EQ would be a much better deal, Since the ER4 with a 6db bass boost sounds better than the past IEM's i tried.

I find it interesting to observe the differences between each section of the online community for headphones. I was first at head-fi, then reddit, then SBAF.

For some reason I believed SBAF was some elitist club of knowledgable experts. Later, that elitist club became headcase. Anyways, my observations:

Head-fi: Everything matters in a system, most people are open minded in terms of what sounds good, little judgement. Massive amount of hype trains, seems like they believe any new and expensive product will be groundbreaking and revolutionize the industry. As such, they are the most obviously brainwashed subjectivists. Standard recommendations would be "buy the best you can afford, its worth it!"

Reddit: A more even split between rational objectivists and subjectivists, where most are just getting into the hobby. Standard advice: "Get a HD650 and a schiit stack!"

SBAF: Elitist people who fool themselves into thinking they've landed at some middle ground between measurements and subjectivity, as if their ears are so sensitive, and their knowledge so deep that they make the most accurate, honest assessment of what sounds good and what doesn't. Borderline personality cult where unknown members can just stfu and automatically have no idea what they're talking about. The result is that any new member makes sure to fall in line with the general attitude there about what is good and what isn't. Typical recommendation: HD650 + the most expensive amp and dac possible, since it "scales into infinity".

Headcase: I don't know too much about headcase, except the Stax threads. The issue with Headcase is that 1) the stax threads are a personality cult for spritzer (not his fault to be honest) and 2) They almost never talk about sound (which is basically 99% of the fun for subjectivists) but rather technical details. Standard recommendations: Some specific Stax headphones that Spritzer has said sounds good, on his custom built 6.000$ amplifier. Anything less, and you're missing out. Clearly spritzer knows what sounds objectively good and not.

One more story from my subjectivist past:

My father was an audiophile at a young age. When I told him about my newfound hobby, he said something to the effect of "well, remember it doesn't have to be expensive. A lot of if is just a waste of money". I kinda thought like "yeah sure thats true, diminishing returns and all that. But if there is ANY amount of increase in SQ, I'm willing to pay for it!". I then started talking about how my audioquest cables had improved my system, and that the cost of x amount of hundreds of dollars was worth it because even if the sound quality increase was small, I could enjoy that sound quality every time I listened to a track. I wouldn't want to lose out on that.

He then said something interesting:

"Why is it that every time you change something in your system, it sounds better to you?"

at the time, I didn't pay any attention to this. I just said "well duh, the system is more transparent, making it sound better." However once I put two and two together - considering he is a PREVIOUS audiophile, an electrical engineer, and sat down with him and asked him what he thought about my audiophile hobby, he simply said that he thought I was wasting my time, and that was his experience too in his youth. I'm honestly somewhat disappointed he didn't just tell me the truth right away, but I'm sure he thought there was no point. And I wouldn't have listened even if he did.

 

[Frgirard]

I am a music lover.

I can't be an audiophile, my ego can't equalized the sound.

 

[Maki]

on his custom built 6.000$ amplifier.

If you have a couple spare weekends you can build your own for cheaper than most new stax amps.

 

[Tim Link]

Something about our auditory system is easily influenced by suggestion, making hifi ripe territory for all kinds of mischief and confusion. Flying airplanes in instrument conditions taught me not to trust my senses. First time I did an IFR landing I felt a very strong sensation that the airplane was in a 45 degree bank until we broke through the clouds and I could see that we were nice and flat and lined up with the runway - just like the instruments indicated. When we listen to stereo we don't have any visual cues about how to interpret the sound, except what the equipment looks like.

 

[Midwest Blade]

Been there...done that...there is a better way.

Thanks for sharing the story, found it refreshing and somehow satisfying.

 

[solderdude]

Nowadays, I find it extremely creepy to browse head-fi and SBAF - it is as if there are huge amount of people being put under a spell. I always figured I was rational and wouldn't be fooled, but I was completely wrong. And I was so convinced too, I would probably go on live television defending the honor of audiophiles if I was asked to. I am embarassed, however I find it cathartic to read about sane people dismantling audiophile bullshit. So I decided to make a user on these forums, which seems to be more... enlightened.

From one cult straight into another... there are zealots on both sides of the fence.
Try walking the path in the middle... this is the way.

Accept hearing is flawed as a measurement device and gauging 'fidelity' and only suited to enjoy music.
Accept transducers produce the sound.
Accept there is no magic or 'yet undiscovered' signal that somehow affects 'fidelity' for some people and only gurus know how to 'utilize' this magic.
Accept there isn't a 'best' transducer in an absolute sense but there are quite a few that may work well for you, well enough to fully enjoy.
Accept there will always be a 'better' or more capable product now and in the future (and for some in the past) but the one(s) you own are probably already good enough.
Accept transducers are easily driven and the technique involved in audio is well understood but certainly not to the general public.
Accept the hearing is very forgiving and slightly good is already good enough.
Don't get caught in the 'only this or that way' of doing things is the only way. There are multiple ways of doing things right but there are more ways of doing things wrong.
And also ... wait ...who is there... noooooooooo

[get's his straightjacket put back on again and is dragged back into his headphone dungeon]

 

[Mnyb]

Did a similar journey but stayed subjectivist far longer, broke the spell about 10-15 years ago.

This is an AA tread Anonymous Audiophiles

 

[charleski]

At the time, I just put it down to one of audios many unsolved mysteries

One of the biggest mysteries is why the same system can sound great one day and a bit grating the next. Even subjectivists have acknowledged this phenomenon. The answer is easy: just as with all our senses, the most important factor in auditory perception is the big mound of jelly sitting inside our heads. On a good day good music can transport you to a blissful state, but on a bad day you're just feeling too grumpy to get there no matter how much money your throw around on equipment.

 

[Tim Link]

One of the biggest mysteries is why the same system can sound great one day and a bit grating the next. Even subjectivists have acknowledged this phenomenon. The answer is easy: just as with all our senses, the most important factor in auditory perception is the big mound of jelly sitting inside our heads. On a good day good music can transport you to a blissful state, but on a bad day you're just feeling too grumpy to get there no matter how much money your throw around on equipment.

Man oh man! I have tried to adjust my stereo to work for me on my grumpy days and there's just no hope. I used to play an upright string bass and it would sound just horrible to me on some days but smooth and silky on others. I always assumed it was the instrument reacting to the weather. Now I suspect it was all about my ear and brain state. Headphones have proven valuable to me to verify my grumpy state if I doubt the working condition of the main speakers. If the mains sound bad but the headphones are enjoyable I know there's actually something amiss with the system. Almost always when I can't enjoy the speakers I can't enjoy the headphones either. They both sound good or bad together.

 

[Repentant subjectivist]

From one cult straight into another... there are zealots on both sides of the fence.
Try walking the path in the middle... this is the way.

Accept hearing is flawed as a measurement device and gauging 'fidelity' and only suited to enjoy music.
Accept transducers produce the sound.
Accept there is no magic or 'yet undiscovered' signal that somehow affects 'fidelity' for some people and only gurus know how to 'utilize' this magic.
Accept there isn't a 'best' transducer in an absolute sense but there are quite a few that may work well for you, well enough to fully enjoy.
Accept there will always be a 'better' or more capable product now and in the future (and for some in the past) but the one(s) you own are probably already good enough.
Accept transducers are easily driven and the technique involved in audio is well understood but certainly not to the general public.
Accept the hearing is very forgiving and slightly good is already good enough.
Don't get caught in the 'only this or that way' of doing things is the only way. There are multiple ways of doing things right but there are more ways of doing things wrong.
And also ... wait ...who is there... noooooooooo

[get's his straightjacket put back on again and is dragged back into his headphone dungeon]

Thanks for the helpful tips. What would you define the position of a zealous objectivist?

 

[Mnyb]

I also does not think subjectivist and objectivists is good terms .

A good ABX for example fully utilise your subjective opinions on the audibility of something .
And in for example speakers who never are truly transparent you eventually have to do an informed subjective choice.
audibility of something is different from preference ( the so called subjectivist never gets this ).

Perpetually biased placebophile vs rational people is better terms to me

The rational approach makes it far easier than it ever had been to for example select candidates for your next speakers.
Armed with knowledge you can exclude for example zu audio and many other designs .

Selection of DAC is even simpler now that we know that they are transparent. You consider feature set build quality output levels format support etc knowing that the sq part is a solved problem , but you don’t pick marginal performance if it can be avoided as you usually chain your signal trough several products ( the studio also did this to the signal ) it adds up somewhere.

 

[Repentant subjectivist]

I also does not think subjectivist and objectivists is good terms .

A good ABX for example fully utilise your subjective opinions on the audibility of something .
And in for example speakers who never are truly transparent you eventually have to do an informed subjective choice.
audibility of something is different from preference ( the so called subjectivist never gets this ).

Perpetually biased placebophile vs rational people is better terms to me

The rational approach makes it far easier than it ever had been to for example select candidates for your next speakers.
Armed with knowledge you can exclude for example zu audio and many other designs .

Selection of DAC is even simpler now that we know that they are transparent. You consider feature set build quality output levels format support etc knowing that the sq part is a solved problem , but you don’t pick marginal performance if it can be avoided as you usually chain your signal trough several products ( the studio also did this to the signal ) it adds up somewhere.

I think generally the main difference between a subjectivist and an objectivist is whether or not measurements and blind testing tells the whole story or not. Once a subjectivist learns of psychoacoustics, that gap is bridged and there is no reasonable way to maintain the subjectivist stance imo. Unfortunately, most people in the subjectivist camp are never exposed to psychoacoustics.

 

[solderdude]

Thanks for the helpful tips. What would you define the position of a zealous objectivist?

Someone that sees a review of the latest or greatest measuring DAC or amp with 1dB better SINAD and runs of to buy it because it is recommended and measures a tiny bit better but will sound exactly the same to the buyer because it is all far below the audible threshold.
Or people refusing to buy a headphone, speaker, amp or DAC because they see something in there that makes them believe this is no good or doesn't get a recommendation while in reality it may sound excellent to them.

This too is a form of extremism that makes life hard for them. At least they don't have to worry about cables and avoid anything that has written snakeoil on it.
Aso in some cases not all aspects or functionality is tested and devices may be said to be snakeoil when in some rare cases they aren't and could be a solution to a specific problem.

So audio is not all black and white but there are shades in between.

 

[2M2B]

Borderline personality cult where unknown members can just stfu and automatically have no idea what they're talking about

That why I stopped going there since I got temp banned for calling out a troll, with threatening to nuke the thread. And rare time I posted a one off impression there It was at -14 with them being super hostile when I asked what going on here.

It's a total dumpster fire.

 

[JSmith]

sane people dismantling audiophile bullshit

I'm glad you've seen the light... welcome.

I've been trying to dismantle this audio "religion" rubbish for 20 years, however there is now much more hard data available to support such a position and nothing apart from "golden ears" to confirm the other.



JSmith

 

[vert]

Users on this site (and other objectivists) are simply salty because they can't afford or aren't willing to prioritize the money to squeeze out every last bit of audio enjoyment.

Well, in my case I can't say money wasn't a consideration, not because I'm poor, but because I have a wife and two children and we maintain a budget. How could I justify sumptuous expenses on audio gear over the many needs of my family? Would someone have to skip tennis lessons or the family not go on vacation because I bought some untested esoteric piece of gear, that I would only have time to sit down and enjoy for an hour or two a week, anyway? Getting away from the audiophile sites since finding out about ASR came as a relief. But long before that, the notion that someone with a decent income couldn't truly access and enjoy high quality sound, given that some gear would always be beyond my reach, other than that it was a bit distressing, also didn't feel logical. Besides, audiophiles seemed to be never satisfied which was also suspicious. Barring cases of user error, shouldn't an expensive piece of gear deliver 100% on its promises? Nobody would buy, say, a Mercedes, if their cars' performance wasn't true, or at least 90% true to the promises of the manufacturer. Mercedes would go bankrupt in short order. But audio gear manufacturers, it seems, operate in a different world.

The attitude you describe is, sadly, widespread. Once on a forum, a guy was asking about what to buy for around $12,000 for a stereo system, a reasonable chunk of cash. I replied to be wary of audiophile scams and how he could easily save money if so inclined and get himself a nice guitar with the difference (it was a guitar forum), and how with a bit of savvy it was even possible to build an objectively great system for under $1,000. I got shouted down by an audiophile boasting about his six-figure ($250,000) setup and that anyone suggesting a $1,000 system could perform well was just ignorant, poor and envious.