Remastering Karajan's Bruckner for Deutsche Grammophon

[goat76]

Artificial reverberation has been used for a long time - since the 1950s - in the production of classical music! For various reasons: room with too dull acoustics, strings of an orchestra not very homogeneous and sounding too raw, etc.
And there are different ways to do it: in the past, we used speakers with springs stretched in front of the speaker... we recorded what came out and injected it at the right dose to improve things, more recently we broadcast the sound with speakers placed in a large empty volume, silent and very very reverberant and we recorded to inject this signal into the original recording at the desired dose...
sometimes that works out well...

I'm glad to learn that recording engineers of classical music aren't too dogmatic about real vs artificial room sound, it's all about reaching a convincing and better-sounding result, and if that means adding artificial reverb instead of a not-so-good-sounding real room sound, I'm all in for that.

But, I'm not sure all the audiophiles that this product is aimed for see it the same way. Many of them probably like to think that most classical audio productions are "pure" representations of the real performance in a fantastic-sounding venue.

 

[Haskil]

I'm glad to learn that recording engineers of classical music aren't too dogmatic about real vs artificial room sound, it's all about reaching a convincing and better-sounding result, and if that means adding artificial reverb instead of a not-so-good-sounding real room sound, I'm all in for that.

But, I'm not sure all the audiophiles that this product is aimed for see it the same way. Many of them probably like to think that most classical audio productions are "pure" representations of the real performance in a fantastic-sounding venue.

They are not and never have been for most of them because of the colossal problems they have to solve when recording... An example: when EMI recorded at La Scala in Milan at At the beginning of the 1950s, the whole room had to be turned upside down because we couldn't record the orchestra in the pit...
Another example: when you record a piano-violin or singer-piano duet... you sometimes have to move them significantly apart to be able to capture satisfactory stereo and balance...
And we sometimes tinker with curtains to isolate the singers from each other in an opera... and sometimes we even do re-recording...

Classic sound recordists have a proven pragmatism... always.

Sometimes it doesn't give good results because they overdo it... and the artistic directors too and not just a little...

Purist audiophiles boast about it but are often ignorant...

that being said, thanks to Scytales present on ASR I discovered a minimal sound recording made with two microphones of Mahler's Third Symphony conducted in London by Horenstein, hitherto known in its LP and CD version from the mixed 8-track recording in 2 tracks... But a recording made in parallel with 2 microphones for a stereo version and 4 microphones for a quadraphonic version was discovered and is now published.
The comparison of the two is fascinating: the 2-microphone version would have difficulty holding on to an LP due to its very high dynamics... The 8-track version known until now was designed for the LP: the sound is therefore much more present because during mixing we arranged things so that it sounded on LP...

 

[Berlin]

This 17 LP set is 300€ on the DG website, which at 17.64€ per LP is quite reasonable.

Well, IMO 17,64 € for 180 g of PVC which inherently can’t sound as accurate as a digital recording is “relatively” overpriced.

P.S.
BTW Karajan is on sale…

 

[Valentino]

Ha! That Karajan! I'll stick to my 1970 Beethoven 200 years anniversary box set.

I have bought many but not all of the DG The original Source series LPs. The Kubelik Ma Vlast is exceptional. I skipped the Bruckner box but bought a 24/96 download of symphony 4-9. In the IMO boring video discussion the Karajan recording of Mahler 6 is leaked as one in the pipeline for release, I guess in January 25. That M6 is also on an 8 track master tape. I'm in!

I'm not very dogmatic when it comes to formats (apart from SACD/DSD. What rot!). I don't have open reel og cassettes, but shellac, vinyl, CDs, downloads up to 24/196 and Spotify are all present. And everything gets digitized here. My crossovers live in a MiniDSP Flex Eight you see.

 

[MattHooper]

Why oh why on vinyl? Just plain stupid.

You can make the same complaint about every modern recording issued on vinyl.

Some of us just like a vinyl version. Hence the market.

 

[HammersRocco]

You can make the same complaint about every modern recording issued on vinyl.

Some of us just like a vinyl version. Hence the market.

THAT thread is spilling into other threads! For some reason, some peeps don't thing vinyl reproduction is worthy of ASR. What is not worthy of ASR is to issue such statement. An ASR person should no confuse their opinion with a universal truth.

Now, to bring it back to topic - I am curious about the quality of the pressings - I remember that that other expensive box, the DG Bernstein Mahler got some pressing issues. I am curious on whether DG (Universal) learned the lessons, so asking those of you that own the Herbie Bruckner box.

 

[Leporello]

Now, to bring it back to topic - I am curious about the quality of the pressings - I remember that that other expensive box, the DG Bernstein Mahler got some pressing issues. I am curious on whether DG (Universal) learned the lessons, so asking those of you that own the Herbie Bruckner box.

I am afraid this will be an utter waste of bandwith. In 1976 discussing the quality of the pressings would have been relevant. In 2024 - after one has deliberately chosen an inferior format with well known and well understood problems - there is no point in discussing the subject endlessly. You have picked your poison, live with it then. Discussing pressings will not advance the art of audio in any way, nor will it increase anyone’s audio knowledge. It is just a vehicle for the local zealots to keep the record spinning, on and on and on.

 

[HammersRocco]

I am afraid this will be an utter waste of bandwith. In 1976 discussing the quality of the pressings would have been relevant. In 2024 - after one has deliberately chosen an inferior format with well known and well understood problems - there is no point in discussing the subject endlessly. You have picked your poison, live with it then. Discussing pressings will not advance the art of audio in any way, nor will it increase anyone’s audio knowledge. It is just a vehicle for the local zealots to keep the record spinning, on and on and on.

Shesus - Lepo went from 0 to jerk in less than ten seconds. People other than @Leporello how is the quality if the pressings?
(hehe)

 

[MattHooper]

I am afraid this will be an utter waste of bandwith. In 1976 discussing the quality of the pressings would have been relevant. In 2024 - after one has deliberately chosen an inferior format with well known and well understood problems - there is no point in discussing the subject endlessly. You have picked your poison, live with it then. Discussing pressings will not advance the art of audio in any way, nor will it increase anyone’s audio knowledge. It is just a vehicle for the local zealots to keep the record spinning, on and on and on.

I don’t know why so many people need to be reminded but: ASR is not simply about “ buying the best possible equipment” or the state of the art or the most neutral. It’s generally about discussing accurate information concerning audio gear. If someone wants the most accurate gear possible in their bidget, they can get good information here. If someone perhaps who already has such a system also wants to play with vinyl and turntables, they can also get information here on how to optimize those formats.

Therefore, conversations are not restricted in the way you seem to imagine to only SOTA equipment or formats. (that’s why there’s a part of the form devoted to vinyl playback.)

If people want to talk about record pressings, then as this thread shows, you can find all sorts of helpful or interesting information.

 

[Head_Unit]

Why oh why on vinyl? Just plain stupid.

 

[HammersRocco]

Money? Well DUH! Is the implication here that record companies should not sell... records? Is the implication here that commercial entities should not make... money?

 

[Jimbob54]

Let's not make this another generic vinyl battle please. Keep comments to the topic at hand or I'll start locking, moving and sanctioning. Thanks

 

[DSJR]

I gather that DG had been quietly re-mixing some of Karajan's work for some decades now (in CD issues), as he had a tendency to get at the mixing desk and 'twiddle' more than a little bit. later remixes I heard, brought up the venue reverb a little and gave more of an fairly close audience perspective over 'conductor's podium' one (my ex-Decca mastering engineer compared some discs he had).

Decca themselves used to do 'beauty-shopping' on their analogue original CD masterings, adding Kingsway hall ambience (analogue and digital) in between movements/tape sections for example to aid the listening experience, but said pal never tampered with the raw recording unless he absolutely had to (one such was to bring in an already very quiet beginning slightly lower still, to disguise a nasty and all but audible edit done far too close to the start of the piece - one would never know unless it was pointed out... Monitors used in his time were original and M series B&W 801s, driven by a large HH MOS-FET power amp set between them, Speaker cables were good old-fashioned twin core mains cable I remember...

 

[Timmy]

An 11-classic-LPs set with a prize tag like this will arouse limited consumer interest. But that would be nothing of surprise to anybody involved in that project.

 

[SME10]

THAT thread is spilling into other threads! For some reason, some peeps don't thing vinyl reproduction is worthy of ASR. What is not worthy of ASR is to issue such statement. An ASR person should no confuse their opinion with a universal truth.

Now, to bring it back to topic - I am curious about the quality of the pressings - I remember that that other expensive box, the DG Bernstein Mahler got some pressing issues. I am curious on whether DG (Universal) learned the lessons, so asking those of you that own the Herbie Bruckner box.

I got mine last week and finally opened it up last night, went straight to the ninth only to discover a 2.5 cm long shiny scratch that ruined any sonic improvement I heard on the record. I only managed to hear 5 minutes and compared it to my SACD, but it was definitely better than the upsampled disc. I got it at a very competitive price and the seller has since increased his selling price, and will not be sending me a replacement. I have not decided whether or not I will seek another one from another seller, as DG’s quality control is quite inconsistent with these box sets. Surprisingly, I have not had any issues with the other DG Original Source releases, but with 17 records in one set you are bound to run into issues, and I am not the only one who has experienced issues with this release. They really need to step up their QC game. I used a Roksan Xerxes 20+ table with SME 309 tonearm and Shure V15 MK V cartridge and Jico SAS stylus.

 

[Scytales]

I got mine last week and finally opened it up last night, went straight to the ninth only to discover a 2.5 cm long shiny scratch that ruined any sonic improvement I heard on the record. I only managed to hear 5 minutes and compared it to my SACD, but it was definitely better than the upsampled disc. I got it at a very competitive price and the seller has since increased his selling price, and will not be sending me a replacement. I have not decided whether or not I will seek another one from another seller, as DG’s quality control is quite inconsistent with these box sets. Surprisingly, I have not had any issues with the other DG Original Source releases, but with 17 records in one set you are bound to run into issues, and I am not the only one who has experienced issues with this release. They really need to step up their QC game. I used a Roksan Xerxes 20+ table with SME 309 tonearm and Shure V15 MK V cartridge and Jico SAS stylus.

I'm not a vinyl fan at all, but if I were, I would find this state of affairs unacceptable.

 

[HammersRocco]

I'm not a vinyl fan at all, but if I were, I would find this state of affairs unacceptable.

Part and parcel, I guess - as @SME10 mentioned, all of the TOS records that I owned have come up perfect; but, it is part of the reason I have stuck to pressings from the audiophile companies. Every major I know (and this is Universal, ultimately) is a crapshoot. Take the RHFs - all great so far but there has been other Warner releases that, well, not so much. The audiophile companies seem to be the more consistent, but the majors have started to take back their catalog, as the vinyl renaissance have progressed. So a lot of the times, well, no option.

Just got the Karajan Four Last Songs by Strauss and well, really happy. I do not get a lot of CM on vinyl but that one was great. But 17 records for an overwhelmed, overworked pressing plant worker, seems indeed, issues like what @SME10 indicated, seem, well, likely...

 

[SME10]

I'm not a vinyl fan at all, but if I were, I would find this state of affairs unacceptable.

Which is why it's going back.

 

[SME10]

Part and parcel, I guess - as @SME10 mentioned, all of the TOS records that I owned have come up perfect; but, it is part of the reason I have stuck to pressings from the audiophile companies. Every major I know (and this is Universal, ultimately) is a crapshoot. Take the RHFs - all great so far but there has been other Warner releases that, well, not so much. The audiophile companies seem to be the more consistent, but the majors have started to take back their catalog, as the vinyl renaissance have progressed. So a lot of the times, well, no option.

Just got the Karajan Four Last Songs by Strauss and well, really happy. I do not get a lot of CM on vinyl but that one was great. But 17 records for an overwhelmed, overworked pressing plant worker, seems indeed, issues like what @SME10 indicated, seem, well, likely...

Agree wholeheartedly here, I have also purchased quite a few of the Esoteric vinyl releases and all have been dead quiet, same with the Acoustic Sounds jazz reissues. None have gone back. I suppose I am lucky with the DG pressings, but seems like my luck ran out with this box set. Part of me still wants to get it because they were meant to be heard on vinyl, and have been improved tremendously with this remastering/reissue, but having to run back to the Fedex office a second time should the same issue reappear is not too appealing right now. Maybe I'll feel differently in a few weeks time.

 

[Robin L]

I gather that DG had been quietly re-mixing some of Karajan's work for some decades now (in CD issues), as he had a tendency to get at the mixing desk and 'twiddle' more than a little bit. later remixes I heard, brought up the venue reverb a little and gave more of an fairly close audience perspective over 'conductor's podium' one (my ex-Decca mastering engineer compared some discs he had).

Favorite example - HvK's 1974 recording of Berlioz' Symphonie Fantastique has an oboe hard-panned from left to right, like something out of Led Zepplin II. Karajan and Stokowski both thought they knew how to balance their recordings, sometimes to laughable effect. Haven't heard Karajan's Bruckner, suspect (like other 1970s recordings from the maestro) there would be weird balances in the original LP pressings, later ironed out in the CD and Blu Ray issues.

As regards the pressing quality, I would imagine that these pressings would be superior to previous LPs if only because they are spread out on more sides than the originals.