Rel Subwoofer experiences

[Golfx]

Please read the previous replies, you don't want DSP built in to your subwoofer. To me, DSP on subwoofers is a negative since it adds cost and latency. All I want on my sub is an on/off switch with auto-sensing, and a gain control, and that's it! You want to implement it upstream, where the DSP can control your speakers AND subwoofer. This is why:

- subwoofers are usually delayed compared to main speakers. The solution is to delay the speakers to match the sub. If you don't have DSP on your main speakers, you can't delay them.
- Main speakers that extend down to low bass frequencies need to be either high passed, OR DSP adjusted to blend in with the sub. The advantage of high passing mains is that you gain more apparent amplifier power and lower bass distortion, but this depends on whether you have good mains and enough amplifier power or not. The advantage of NOT high passing mains is that you can use them as additional "subwoofers" and gain some of the advantages of multi-sub but without having to buy so many subs. Either way, the mains will need DSP.
- DSP on one sub is not "aware" of DSP's in other subs, so designing a filter to integrate them all is more difficult.
- DSP on subs is usually crude and proprietary. It is a far cry from a system-wide DSP solution.

Perhaps you are confusing the Perlisten’s DSP capabilities as an improper overlap with room EQ?

Below is a review that explains the D15’s DSP.

Perlisten Audio D15s Subwoofer Review

Review of the Perlisten D15s subwoofer, the smallest footprint THX Dominus rated subwoofer on the market

www.avforums.com

I have also attached screenshot from the review explaining how the D15 DSP controls the sub. And it has an app that treats the other D15s in the room as a group.

 

[Keith_W]

Perhaps you are confusing the Perlisten’s DSP capabilities as an improper overlap with room EQ?

I was not aware that the Perlisten's DSP was so sophisticated. Good on them. But it still can't control main speakers, and I would rather not pay extra for a feature I will not use. I suppose that if you buy that Perlisten as a HT sub, you will have upstream DSP in the form of an AVR anyway. In which case, having sophisticated DSP on the sub would be an advantage.

 

[Golfx]

I was not aware that the Perlisten's DSP was so sophisticated. Good on them. But it still can't control main speakers, and I would rather not pay extra for a feature I will not use. I suppose that if you buy that Perlisten as a HT sub, you will have upstream DSP in the form of an AVR anyway. In which case, having sophisticated DSP on the sub would be an advantage.

One of the best advantages, I think, is you can NOT harm your sub by playing too loudly by mistake.

 

[marked sound]

Please read the previous replies, you don't want DSP built in to your subwoofer. To me, DSP on subwoofers is a negative since it adds cost and latency. All I want on my sub is an on/off switch with auto-sensing, and a gain control, and that's it! You want to implement it upstream, where the DSP can control your speakers AND subwoofer. This is why:

- subwoofers are usually delayed compared to main speakers. The solution is to delay the speakers to match the sub. If you don't have DSP on your main speakers, you can't delay them.
- Main speakers that extend down to low bass frequencies need to be either high passed, OR DSP adjusted to blend in with the sub. The advantage of high passing mains is that you gain more apparent amplifier power and lower bass distortion, but this depends on whether you have good mains and enough amplifier power or not. The advantage of NOT high passing mains is that you can use them as additional "subwoofers" and gain some of the advantages of multi-sub but without having to buy so many subs. Either way, the mains will need DSP.
- DSP on one sub is not "aware" of DSP's in other subs, so designing a filter to integrate them all is more difficult.
- DSP on subs is usually crude and proprietary. It is a far cry from a system-wide DSP solution.

I still have not found a suitable solution for room correction for both speakers and subs in a HiFi system. miniDSP still does not offer any real good sunwoofer correction solutions. I heard that wiim room correction is not great either, and my 2 channel HiFi amp which I am not getting rid of does not have it either. Any help that I can get from the sub in that regard I will take. Might not be perfect but better than nothing.

 

[Keith_W]

miniDSP still does not offer any real good sunwoofer correction solutions.

What is it about the MiniDSP that you feel is inadequate? I agree that it is not the ultimate solution, but it's good enough for most people. Where it loses out is if you have a niche requirement, e.g. if you require more than 8 DAC channels, or you require FIR.

 

[marked sound]

Perhaps you are confusing the Perlisten’s DSP capabilities as an improper overlap with room EQ?

Below is a review that explains the D15’s DSP.

Perlisten Audio D15s Subwoofer Review

Review of the Perlisten D15s subwoofer, the smallest footprint THX Dominus rated subwoofer on the market

www.avforums.com

I have also attached screenshot from the review explaining how the D15 DSP controls the sub. And it has an app that treats the other D15s in the room as a group.

Pretty sure the Perlisten D15s is what i will go witj.

What is it about the MiniDSP that you feel is inadequate? I agree that it is not the ultimate solution, but it's good enough for most people. Where it loses out is if you have a niche requirement, e.g. if you require more than 8 DAC channels, or you require FIR.

MiniDSP does not have audessy bass control

 

[Keith_W]

MiniDSP does not have audessy bass control

It does have Dirac Live Bass Control as an option. And you can also manually design filters for it, or use MSO. I don't use Audyssey so I don't know if it's going to be any better than DLBC. Why do you think it's a superior option?

 

[marked sound]

It does have Dirac Live Bass Control as an option. And you can also manually design filters for it, or use MSO. I don't use Audyssey so I don't know if it's going to be any better than DLBC. Why do you think it's a superior option?

I meant dirac. As of right now it does not have dirac bass control. Can you show me a link that proves it has dirac bass control? All of the minidsp forums have people complaining that it doesnt.

If it had dirac bass contol it would make my life easier but it doesnt. If you have some new info im not aware of please share.

 

[Keith_W]

I meant dirac. As of right now it does not have dirac bass control. Can you show me a link that proves it has dirac bass control? All of the minidsp forums have people complaining that it doesnt.

I just checked. You are correct, it does not have DLBC. IMO that's a good thing, DLBC is an expensive waste of money. But ... if you want to get it, i'm not going to stop you

 

[marked sound]

It does have Dirac Live Bass Control as an option. And you can also manually design filters for it, or use MSO. I don't use Audyssey so I don't know if it's going to be any better than DLBC. Why do you think it's a superior option?

If it

I just checked. You are correct, it does not have DLBC. IMO that's a good thing, DLBC is an expensive waste of money. But ... if you want to get it, i'm not going to stop you

I cant find a solution that offers it. Otherwise I would. That is why I want a subwoofer with some sort of dsp. Because get bass control from MiniDSP

 

[goat76]

REL is one of very few companies that has high level subwoofer inputs (i.e. takes input after power amplification instead of a preamp level input). They claim that this is better because it "preserves the tone of your amplifier into the bass region". In reality, what they do is take the high level input, knock it down with a resistor, and then amplify it again. If you use a high level input, you have a few problems:

- there is no way to high pass your speaker except by designing another passive XO that you place in between the speaker and the amplifier,
- no way to control the subwoofer independently via DSP,
- there is a risk of sending the negative terminal to the ground with certain amplifier types.

Not to mention the whole premise of "preserving the tone" of your amplifier is absurd in the first place. IMO there are no good reasons to promote a high level sub input as a superior alternative. I am sure REL has hired competent engineers, I wonder how they sleep at night knowing what management and marketing are doing.

As you have surely noticed, as a long-time member here, many people struggle a lot when trying to integrate subwoofers into their system, and many of them even give up completely, saying they are better off not using a subwoofer at all.

As long as someone doesn't feel the need to high-pass their main speakers, and just wants the lower bass extension, it's pretty much impossible not to succed implementing a REL with their high-level input and the low crossover point that often comes with that. I say this as I don't think we should dismiss a solution just because it may be a technically inferior solution on some points, as the more technically superior solution is obviously so hard to get seamlessly integrated, making half of the people give up on subwoofers completely.

 

[Keith_W]

As you have surely noticed, as a long-time member here, many people struggle a lot when trying to integrate subwoofers into their system, and many of them even give up completely, saying they are better off not using a subwoofer at all.

As long as someone doesn't feel the need to high-pass their main speakers, and just wants the lower bass extension, it's pretty much impossible not to succed implementing a REL with their high-level input and the low crossover point that often comes with that. I say this as I don't think we should dismiss a solution just because it may be a technically inferior solution on some points, as the more technically superior solution is obviously so hard to get seamlessly integrated, making half of the people give up on subwoofers completely.

I think that if you don't know how to integrate a subwoofer, and you are not willing to invest in the tools and learn how to use them, you are better off with no subwoofer at all. I have heard MANY subjectively dialled in subwoofers that sound horrible. The usual mistake is to turn the bass up too high. Even if it's not turned up too high, the lack of EQ means that certain bass notes drone on. And it's always obvious where the subwoofer is in the room.

At the very minimum, a sub with no DSP needs to be tuned with a microphone, but at best people are getting only half the performance they paid for, maybe even less. DSP is essential. If you don't have DSP, the sub is an expensive waste of money which will likely make a system sound worse instead of better.

 

[goat76]

I think that if you don't know how to integrate a subwoofer, and you are not willing to invest in the tools and learn how to use them, you are better off with no subwoofer at all. I have heard MANY subjectively dialled in subwoofers that sound horrible. The usual mistake is to turn the bass up too high. Even if it's not turned up too high, the lack of EQ means that certain bass notes drone on. And it's always obvious where the subwoofer is in the room.

At the very minimum, a sub with no DSP needs to be tuned with a microphone, but at best people are getting only half the performance they paid for, maybe even less. DSP is essential. If you don't have DSP, the sub is an expensive waste of money which will likely make a system sound worse instead of better.

But I think most members here do use some form of EQ, but still don’t manage to get their subwoofers seamlessly and well integrated with their main speakers. I would say subwoofer integration is two or three steps more complicated than just learning how to EQ the frequency response. Using an equalizer is not an exclusive tool just for people managing their subwoofer interactions using HP and LP filters, you know.

I’m sure you have read the thread where the OP ask people why they prefer their system without subwoofers. I don’t remember the name of that thread, but there is obviously a lot of people who struggle to get their subwoofers to integrate well with the rest of the system, even if they seem to have fairly good technical knowledge of other things when it comes to setting up a HiFi system.
For many of these people, a simple high-level connection could be the solution, but many of them will not even try it out when reading how “bad” of a solution that is supposed to be. That’s a shame, that’s all I’m saying.

 

[Mnyb]

Yes I had a REL but used it as any other HT sub it worked fine ( stadium III ) but overpriced, when it eventually broke I got a rhythmic.

And yes the REL high level ”integration” is “just add some bass below what my current speakers are doing” . And you miss opportunities to offload the main speakers for even better sound etc and no sorting out of room modes etc etc. But it sorta works and adds bass to systems without any bass management capabilities at all and you don’t have to change anything else .

We all know that proper bass management and dual or is more subwoofers are very effective and the classical REL method seem very old fashioned and crude and limited. But hey it works out for some and I’m off to re measure my system once again comparing WiiM room fit vs my own measurements using REW …..

What rubs some ( me for example ) the wrong way is the claims of extra musicality ? ( lot of overtones in the sub )
And that the REL integration preserves the character of your amp “sound” ( in reality you not very likely to make complete mess as you can with a failed proper bass management, the REL integration just adds some faint sub bass )

 

[marked sound]

I think that if you don't know how to integrate a subwoofer, and you are not willing to invest in the tools and learn how to use them, you are better off with no subwoofer at all. I have heard MANY subjectively dialled in subwoofers that sound horrible. The usual mistake is to turn the bass up too high. Even if it's not turned up too high, the lack of EQ means that certain bass notes drone on. And it's always obvious where the subwoofer is in the room.

At the very minimum, a sub with no DSP needs to be tuned with a microphone, but at best people are getting only half the performance they paid for, maybe even less. DSP is essential. If you don't have DSP, the sub is an expensive waste of money which will likely make a system sound worse instead of better.

Too many got it in their head that a sub can't POSSIBLY sound good in a system unless, it has been properly measured / calibrated to the umpteenth degree, and they subconsciously trick themselves into thinking it sounds like garbage. Both my brother and my friend have subs integrated in their HiFi systems and all they ever messed with is the subs positioning and the subs volume knob, and I can you that both of their systems sound way better with the subs on than off. I am don't want to spend 3 days moving my sub(s) around the room and I actually want my subs In front beside my mains. I a hoping that the DSP of the Perlisten will help somewhat (since MiniDSP doesn't offer sub management).

My main goal of this thread was to get people's feedback on the REL's high level integration. Word on the street was that it is supposed to blend nicely with your speakers and incorporate the signature sound of your amp. However getting feedback from someone of the audio nerds on here, REL subs seem to be more marketing mumbo jumbo than they are substance.

 

[marked sound]

But I think most members here do use some form of EQ, but still don’t manage to get their subwoofers seamlessly and well integrated with their main speakers. I would say subwoofer integration is two or three steps more complicated than just learning how to EQ the frequency response. Using an equalizer is not an exclusive tool just for people managing their subwoofer interactions using HP and LP filters, you know.

I’m sure you have read the thread where the OP ask people why they prefer their system without subwoofers. I don’t remember the name of that thread, but there is obviously a lot of people who struggle to get their subwoofers to integrate well with the rest of the system, even if they seem to have fairly good technical knowledge of other things when it comes to setting up a HiFi system.
For many of these people, a simple high-level connection could be the solution, but many of them will not even try it out when reading how “bad” of a solution that is supposed to be. That’s a shame, that’s all I’m saying.

Please read my above post.

 

[EJasonC]

Unless I missed it. I haven't found much for reviews on here for the REL 212. I am potentially looking at a pair of REL 212 black label subs.
Does anyone have any experience with this sub or REL subs in general? One reply to a different thread mentioned lack of posted measurements from both REL themselves, and from other reviewers, on REL subs.

The specs seem nice but I have no idea how they sound or distort and a lot of reviews seem like they are coming from REL fanboys.

Thanks.

In terms of experience:

I have a pair of Rel HT/1510 Predators in my 7.2 HT man cave; they’re connect via balanced XLR (they don’t have high level inputs). The speakers are all Adam Audio AX series active monitors. The 1510’s replaced a single Sunfire TSEQ12 which was just not enough for the 4400 cubic foot man cave; I moved that to the 2.1 system in the smaller living room space about half the man cave size, where it performs very well.

The only other subwoofer I have experience with is a sealed 12 inch M&K, I don’t recall the model. I was very pleased with the M&K performance but in the end handed it down to my son, who has it setup with a pair of Q-Acoustic floor standers.

In any case, the two Predators provide very palpable LFE effortlessly and the finest bass definition I’ve heard when configured in stereo mode for music. For all intents and purposes, it is virtually end game for me. I’ve had them in my system for a little more than a year now, and have simply been enjoying them almost daily. I’ve no desire at the moment to explore alternatives.

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

I am perfectly happy with my REL S2's.
Used with Spendor s100's, and more recently, Sierra LX's.
Set at 10 clicks on the 40 click volume pot.

 

[goat76]

TV

My main goal of this thread was to get people's feedback on the REL's high level integration. Word on the street was that it is supposed to blend nicely with your speakers and incorporate the signature sound of your amp. However getting feedback from someone of the audio nerds on here, REL subs seem to be more marketing mumbo jumbo than they are substance.

REL definitely uses some mumbo jumbo in their marketing, like the “preservation of the amps tone”, “fancy upgrade cables”, and terms like “musicality”. But what’s true is that the high-level connection is damn easy way to get the subwoofers to integrate seamlessly with the main speakers, which is the single most important thing to get right.

But REL subwoofers work absolutely best with main speakers that don’t have high distortion on their own, as the high-level method will never offload your speakers if they are of the kind with way too “impressive bass extension” for their own best, you know, the ones that you often see tested here with distortion level shooting through the roof already at 86 dB or at similar modest levels.

 

[marked sound]

TV


REL definitely uses some mumbo jumbo in their marketing, like the “preservation of the amps tone”, “fancy upgrade cables”, and terms like “musicality”. But what’s true is that the high-level connection is damn easy way to get the subwoofers to integrate seamlessly with the main speakers, which is no single most important thing to get right.

But REL subwoofers work absolutely best with main speakers that don’t have high distortion on their own, as the high-level method will never offload your speakers if they are of the kind with way too “impressive bass extension” for their own best, you know, the ones that you often see tested here with distortion level shooting through the roof already at 86 dB or at similar modest levels.

The speakers I am using ar the Q Acoustics Concept 500s, which test very well for distortion. I still might lean towards the Perlisten D15s sub though.