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Rel Subwoofer experiences

Keith_W said:
@ryanosaur answered this question very well. But I would add (as I said in your other thread) - the perception of "fast" bass has more to do with how well the sub has been integrated into the system than the sub itself. If your sub is poorly time aligned, forms room modes that take forever to decay, it will seem "flabby" or "slow". Which is why nearly everybody on ASR who owns subwoofers also has some kind of DSP.
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Dsp built in to the sub?
 
Keith_W said:
@ryanosaur answered this question very well. But I would add (as I said in your other thread) - the perception of "fast" bass has more to do with how well the sub has been integrated into the system than the sub itself. If your sub is poorly time aligned, forms room modes that take forever to decay, it will seem "flabby" or "slow". Which is why nearly everybody on ASR who owns subwoofers also has some kind of DSP.
Click to expand...
What is "your" sub recommendation?
 
ryanosaur said:
This concept of quick (and tight) is just more marketing mumbo jumbo, held over from times when Subs did actually have some of these problems. Modern designs by competent engineers perform quite well.

If you want to chase 16Hz, you should really be looking at some good ported subs, at least no smaller than 15”. You could go sealed, but you will be relying on cabin gain to help you out and the effect of cabin gain diminishes quickly when your total room volume exceeds 3000cu.ft.

Group Delay measurements under 1.5 cycles per second from low 20Hz and higher is what you will need to see in measurement data. Below 20 Hz, you don’t really hear very well and GD matters slightly less.

There are many good ported Subs that even have GD rivaling sealed designs and staying below or near 1cycle per second.

Lastly, moving air, or displacement, requires a big cone. Similar to expecting a 6” driver to deliver enough energy to feel the chest-thump of good kick drum (or John Wick shotgun blasts) a 12” driver is not going to move a lot of air. Not saying it can’t be done, but it’s just not the right tool for the job.

If Arendal still makes their 17xx 2V sub, that might be a good choice. SVS and Hsu, also should be able to deliver on what you are looking for. The new Hsu VTF-TN1 is supposed to be a very good unit.

Or reach out to Harbottle and see what they can do for you. ;)
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If you had to pick "one" sub which one.
 
marked sound said:
If you had to pick "one" sub which one.
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I’m not you.

I know that will sound like a cop out, but here’s the thing. It’s your home, your ears, your aesthetics and your ducats!

On one hand, I like Hsu, and with your budget you could buy 4 and crush it.

If I had money as no bar to my choice, I would drop an order on Harbottle, get 3 subs from them.

There was a time I thought hard about buying several Monolith Subs from Monoprice. They reviewed exceptionally well, but Monoprice had a bunch of customer service failures to match some broken product. :(

Arendal and SVS are sound options as well…

But you really need to look hard at what you want in your room and be realistic about your expectations. You will need big boxes with big drivers to do what you want, and you will likely want 2… if not 3 or 4 subs… depending on how loud you want things to get.

Everything in this decision is about balancing trade offs, one sub might go lower, better, but the other sub might have better mid-bass impact. One might fit your room better but not scratch another itch.

Beyond all of this, you also want to make certain your household power can handle what you do. :) Harbottle Subs are very good, but they come with Big Boy Amps which will draw and push a lot of juice. 15a wall outlets might not cut it: he’ll, 20a outlets might not.

So how deep do you wanna go? :D
 
Take a look at the new svs 3000 revolution. Svs dsp with bluetooth app is a plus. I have a couple od svs sb 1000 pro and they are good. Would buy the 3000 if i were buying now.
 
ryanosaur said:
I’m not you.

I know that will sound like a cop out, but here’s the thing. It’s your home, your ears, your aesthetics and your ducats!

On one hand, I like Hsu, and with your budget you could buy 4 and crush it.

If I had money as no bar to my choice, I would drop an order on Harbottle, get 3 subs from them.

There was a time I thought hard about buying several Monolith Subs from Monoprice. They reviewed exceptionally well, but Monoprice had a bunch of customer service failures to match some broken product. :(

Arendal and SVS are sound options as well…

But you really need to look hard at what you want in your room and be realistic about your expectations. You will need big boxes with big drivers to do what you want, and you will likely want 2… if not 3 or 4 subs… depending on how loud you want things to get.

Everything in this decision is about balancing trade offs, one sub might go lower, better, but the other sub might have better mid-bass impact. One might fit your room better but not scratch another itch.

Beyond all of this, you also want to make certain your household power can handle what you do. :) Harbottle Subs are very good, but they come with Big Boy Amps which will draw and push a lot of juice. 15a wall outlets might not cut it: he’ll, 20a outlets might not.

So how deep do you wanna go? :D
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One thing is I don't listen loud. I am just a sit back and chill to the music type guy. I heard a lot of good things about rithmik, and hsu, not a lot about others.
 
While you are considering spending more money have you looked into the Perlisten D15 or R18 subs?
hometheaterhifi.com

Perlisten Audio D15s Subwoofer Review - HomeTheaterHifi.com

Ever heard of THX Dominus? Perlisten’s D15s Subwoofer has. This 15-inch sub stands ready to anchor your home theater.
hometheaterhifi.com hometheaterhifi.com
Reviews and performance are outstanding
 
I think the REL 212 is a great sub, but for the price maybe 4x Rel ht1510 is a better choice.
Perlisten, Arendal, SVS have indeed nice subwoofers.
 
marked sound said:
One thing is I don't listen loud. I am just a sit back and chill to the music type guy. I heard a lot of good things about rithmik, and hsu, not a lot about others.
Click to expand...
Re: low frequency output, if you want it to sound the same as higher frequencies, you will want to run the Subs hot. This is why THX has Subswoofer reference level from 95-115dB, while the other Speakers are 85-105dB.

It is not unheard of for some of the HT Bass Heads to be running a +15-20dB House Curve starting around 100Hz and ramping up as frequencies drop.

Not saying you need to do this, just that if you know what a live pipe organ can do and you are wanting to replicate that, you need to keep in mind that being -6dB at 16Hz is not going to scratch the itch. Certainly it will rattle your floorboards and give you that “feel,” but it’s not like getting goosed by a real 32’ pipe!
 
Palmspar said:
Rel ht1510 is a better choice.
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According to the AH review, the 1510 is not a great sub, especially for infrasonic output. Distortion rises significantly below 25Hz, it compresses when pushed with long term output, and its output at 16hz is below reference level SPL. The only really good thing in its measurements is the Group Delay.
 
You could also get four Monolith 16“ for that much money.
 
marked sound said:
What is "your" sub recommendation?
Click to expand...

Right now I am helping a friend design a subwoofer. He wants his sub to blend into his existing furniture. I tested whether his proposed locations are good places to put his subs since he won't be able to move his subs once they are made and integrated into his built-ins. If you want something like this, start by choosing the driver and whether you want sealed or ported. For DIY, sealed is easier to design and more compact, but you lose bass extension and some SPL. Because of this, you always need multiple subs for sealed, especially so if you have a large room. Then it's a matter of copying the reference design, making sure the Vas (internal volume) is the same, and altering the dimensions to suit your application.

If you don't want to DIY / customize the sub to your room, then it's a matter of deciding on your budget (which you have already done), deciding how many subs (more is better), deciding how big (bigger driver is better), whether you want large size/high efficiency (better) or small size/low efficiency, whether you want ported or sealed. You will also need to test your proposed locations for the sub and ask yourself if you need more.

You have said elsewhere that you are willing to spend $10k. With that kind of money, it is better to buy four $2.5k subs rather than one $10k one, or even two $5k ones. But whether you have somewhere to put four subs is another question, only you can answer that. Don't do what REL does and stack the subwoofers on top of each other, that is the most stupid solution even if it's aesthetically pleasing.

Amir has repeatedly said that subwoofers are not for beginners. This is true, but all people buying subwoofers for the first time are beginners, the only question is whether you are willing to put in the hours to learn how to use it. You will also need to obtain a microphone and learn how to take measurements. And ideally you should also have DSP.
 
marked sound said:
How would you compare the Perlisten D15 to the Rythmik G25HP?
Click to expand...
The person to ask is the subwoofer reviewer @shady on Audioholics website. He will give you an informed recommendation if asked.
 
Keith_W said:
Right now I am helping a friend design a subwoofer. He wants his sub to blend into his existing furniture. I tested whether his proposed locations are good places to put his subs since he won't be able to move his subs once they are made and integrated into his built-ins. If you want something like this, start by choosing the driver and whether you want sealed or ported. For DIY, sealed is easier to design and more compact, but you lose bass extension and some SPL. Because of this, you always need multiple subs for sealed, especially so if you have a large room. Then it's a matter of copying the reference design, making sure the Vas (internal volume) is the same, and altering the dimensions to suit your application.

If you don't want to DIY / customize the sub to your room, then it's a matter of deciding on your budget (which you have already done), deciding how many subs (more is better), deciding how big (bigger driver is better), whether you want large size/high efficiency (better) or small size/low efficiency, whether you want ported or sealed. You will also need to test your proposed locations for the sub and ask yourself if you need more.

You have said elsewhere that you are willing to spend $10k. With that kind of money, it is better to buy four $2.5k subs rather than one $10k one, or even two $5k ones. But whether you have somewhere to put four subs is another question, only you can answer that. Don't do what REL does and stack the subwoofers on top of each other, that is the most stupid solution even if it's aesthetically pleasing.

Amir has repeatedly said that subwoofers are not for beginners. This is true, but all people buying subwoofers for the first time are beginners, the only question is whether you are willing to put in the hours to learn how to use it. You will also need to obtain a microphone and learn how to take measurements. And ideally you should also have DSP.
Click to expand...
I think I have actually narrowed down my sub choice to 2 models. The Perlisten D15s or the Rythmik G25. I really like the Rythmik G25 as it has Direct Servo which will really help to eliminate distortion and prevent any sub movement. However the G25 is massive and has no DSP. The Perlisten D15 is fair bit smaller, but it is still pretty heavy and has a solid cabinet, so it shouldn't be too bad for distortion. Also from what I read it has a pretty nice DSP. I am "likely" going with the Perlisten D15s.
 
Golfx said:
The person to ask is the subwoofer reviewer @shady on Audioholics website. He will give you an informed recommendation if asked.
Click to expand...
I think I will pass on the Rythmik. Yes it has servo but it is just way to big and has no DSP.
 
Please read the previous replies, you don't want DSP built in to your subwoofer. To me, DSP on subwoofers is a negative since it adds cost and latency. All I want on my sub is an on/off switch with auto-sensing, and a gain control, and that's it! You want to implement it upstream, where the DSP can control your speakers AND subwoofer. This is why:

- subwoofers are usually delayed compared to main speakers. The solution is to delay the speakers to match the sub. If you don't have DSP on your main speakers, you can't delay them.
- Main speakers that extend down to low bass frequencies need to be either high passed, OR DSP adjusted to blend in with the sub. The advantage of high passing mains is that you gain more apparent amplifier power and lower bass distortion, but this depends on whether you have good mains and enough amplifier power or not. The advantage of NOT high passing mains is that you can use them as additional "subwoofers" and gain some of the advantages of multi-sub but without having to buy so many subs. Either way, the mains will need DSP.
- DSP on one sub is not "aware" of DSP's in other subs, so designing a filter to integrate them all is more difficult.
- DSP on subs is usually crude and proprietary. It is a far cry from a system-wide DSP solution.
 
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