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rel acoustics live subwoofer demo
- Thread starter Andysu
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Yeah, that’s probably a valid point namely placing mics a meter or two away from all speakers including the sub. And of course in person audition/demo is the only real way to truly experience the full impact in the soundstage and dynamics. I did just that before pulling the trigger on one Rel using the aforementioned CD of Vinland Saga. After a month of enjoying one sub and running it in, I decided to give a pair a shot. And all I can say is wow! A stereo pair of subs is quite astonishing to experience even with strictly musical content. With HT, its a game changer, at least for me it was/is.I also thought that the microphones where too close right up to the midrange driver. They should've put them further away but not as far as you suggest as that would give a recording with way too much reflections from the room as microphones would pick up everything our hearing wouldn't “register”. I think 1-1.5 meters away would probably enough for the sound from all the drivers to sum up good enough acoustically for at least hearing the differences in bass output.
But anyway, such test would only be useful to determine if the sound is more or less bassy, but we already know that adding subwoofers will add more bass, so what's the point?
To hear what we'll integrated subwoofers bring to the system, the only real thing left to do is demo the difference in person.
Agreed, it’s not a huge investment by any means. I wonder though how does one measure the performance of such small drivers in the first place? Has Amir reviewed other HP’s? I suppose I could simply search the archives.
Thighsofsteel
Active Member
I think you mean WAAAAAAAAAAYYYY overpriced.
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They're a legacy brand that relies on that to charge higher prices, like McIntosh etc. They offered a way to connect a sub to a 2ch system when no gear had sub outs, much less DSP, etc. Like other legacy brands, they rely on pretty looks and such, which is fine too. Not seen them objectively tested against something like Rythmik for far less $, but I assume their subs likely perform well enough, just not worth the $. I tried a REL Tx9, which is the top of their entry line, ended up returning it after deciding performance for $, not worth it to me. Of course I connected it via sub out and base management/DSP via an Anthem STR integrated vs high level connections which are of no value with modern gear offering proper sub outs.
REL claims DSP is "slow" but how do they test/demonstrate that? Seems like more marketing lingo to justify the high level connection no longer needed with most modern gear:
"No digital signal processing, often used to achieve a flat response, is used in any REL subwoofer. This is because one of REL’s main design criteria is impulse response and they believe that DSP is too slow. As owner John Hunter told me: 'I say to people ‘do you know how slow DSP is?’ Our subwoofers are blindingly fast."
REL Classic 99 subwoofer - The Absolute Sound
REL Classic 99 subwoofer - If you need to improve your system’s bass quality or quantity, then of course the REL Classic 99 can do that with ease. But I suspect most people do not realise that it will also improve the sound as a whole, giving more insights and presence to percussion, drumkit...
www.theabsolutesound.com
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Well now you tell me!
Dear God. How do these people live with themselves. What utter BS.
I think they had a nice niche as a slightly more expensive, underperforming subwoofer. Which can be a decent niche because an underperforming sub can be much easier to integrate into a system and room with minimal effort; and that can make customers happier with it and thus, for them, it is a better subwoofer. But many of their prices now exceed that performance by too much. It seems like they really started to believe their own hype.
They were also rocketed into the mainstream by Paul McGowan frequently mentioning them as his subwoofer of choice. His video where he said REL was his favorite and connecting using high level signal is the best has had 728,000 views. It would cost a massive amount of money to buy that kind of advertising.
I can't imagine how much smaller PS Audio would be today without all his videos. Audio companies need to be auditioning folksy, charismatic people to represent them online.
They were also rocketed into the mainstream by Paul McGowan frequently mentioning them as his subwoofer of choice. His video where he said REL was his favorite and connecting using high level signal is the best has had 728,000 views. It would cost a massive amount of money to buy that kind of advertising.
I can't imagine how much smaller PS Audio would be today without all his videos. Audio companies need to be auditioning folksy, charismatic people to represent them online.
The videos, marketing and high level Speakon superiority is not my cup of tea, however:
- Excellent finishing on the enclosures.
- Good dealer network.
- No DSP, just old fashioned crossover network. If you want to DSP the sub, wouldn't you want to do this on the pre amp anyway?
- High level connection supporting older (style) setups.
- Brand recognition and used market resale value are better than others.
I've done some work on REL's from the past, late 90's and 00's. Can't remember the exact models, however the build of the cabinets and amplifier components was good. toroidal transformer, Nichicon caps and easy serviceable.
A REL is not for everybody, but there certainly cases in which I'd recommend them. Would very much like to see a few REL's measured.
- Excellent finishing on the enclosures.
- Good dealer network.
- No DSP, just old fashioned crossover network. If you want to DSP the sub, wouldn't you want to do this on the pre amp anyway?
- High level connection supporting older (style) setups.
- Brand recognition and used market resale value are better than others.
I've done some work on REL's from the past, late 90's and 00's. Can't remember the exact models, however the build of the cabinets and amplifier components was good. toroidal transformer, Nichicon caps and easy serviceable.
A REL is not for everybody, but there certainly cases in which I'd recommend them. Would very much like to see a few REL's measured.
The DSP is typically also used for manufacturer tuning/crossover, not just for the end user. In addition, many users still don't have DSP in their main system / preamp/ source.
There's one measured by Audioholics at least:
REL Acoustics HT/1510 Predator II Sealed Subwoofer Review
The REL Acoustics HT/1510 Predator II is a 1,000 watt, 15” woofer, sealed bruiser. REL touts their subwoofers as being fast & musical. We evaluate that claim with measurements & associated trade offs.
www.audioholics.com
I have two REL S/510 in my setup. I use the high-level connection, and the DSP EQ adjustments are handled by my preamp.
I think this "traditional" way of doing things works great; these REL subwoofers integrate seamlessly with my main speakers in such an easy way, which I think many people with "regular" HPF/LPF connections often struggle to get right. Based on reading different threads here at ASR, it seems like many people even give up on the whole idea of subwoofers when they don't get them to seamlessly integrate with the main speakers. I think a simple high-connection solution, as the one REL recommends, could be the right way to go for many of these people, but many of them will unfortunately read all these negative comments about REL subwoofers and instead completely give up on subwoofers altogether.
That's a shame.
Great to see a positive review backing up REL.The DSP is typically also used for manufacturer tuning/crossover, not just for the end user. In addition, many users still don't have DSP in their main system / preamp/ source.
There's one measured by Audioholics at least:
REL Acoustics HT/1510 Predator II Sealed Subwoofer Review
The REL Acoustics HT/1510 Predator II is a 1,000 watt, 15” woofer, sealed bruiser. REL touts their subwoofers as being fast & musical. We evaluate that claim with measurements & associated trade offs.
@goat76
If you have DSP/EQ support in your system for both subs and speakers, then this can work well.
What I often see is people who don't have any EQ support, and they don't high pass the mains, and then introduce a sub "below" the speakers, for instance a Rel (or one of our subs for that matter) and potentially through high level connections, crossed over very low, often with relatively large main speakers that go pretty low in-room.
Then it is true that the subwoofer can integrate easily. It is also true that the subwoofer doesn't do much at all. It's not snakeoil exactly, but it's sort of problematic. Because you have a sub that works maybe from 30-35hz and below, so with a lot of music you don't really hear it at all. But since we know bias is strong (people hear the difference between cables and audiophile wifi routers after all), it can feel like a world of difference, while really it's not.
And if they don't have any DSP/EQ, the typical room problems in the 30-100hz area is still handled by the speakers, and are left unattended.
So I agree that the "REL way" of not high passing the mains and crossing the subwoofer very low can be much easier to integrate than other alterntatives. However, from a performance perspective I still think it's the wrong way to integrate a subwoofer.
If you have DSP/EQ support in your system for both subs and speakers, then this can work well.
What I often see is people who don't have any EQ support, and they don't high pass the mains, and then introduce a sub "below" the speakers, for instance a Rel (or one of our subs for that matter) and potentially through high level connections, crossed over very low, often with relatively large main speakers that go pretty low in-room.
Then it is true that the subwoofer can integrate easily. It is also true that the subwoofer doesn't do much at all. It's not snakeoil exactly, but it's sort of problematic. Because you have a sub that works maybe from 30-35hz and below, so with a lot of music you don't really hear it at all. But since we know bias is strong (people hear the difference between cables and audiophile wifi routers after all), it can feel like a world of difference, while really it's not.
And if they don't have any DSP/EQ, the typical room problems in the 30-100hz area is still handled by the speakers, and are left unattended.
So I agree that the "REL way" of not high passing the mains and crossing the subwoofer very low can be much easier to integrate than other alterntatives. However, from a performance perspective I still think it's the wrong way to integrate a subwoofer.
Whether using the Speakon (high level) or RCA/XLR (low level), the same circuitry and filtering is applied. If possible I'd always use low level over high level.
Yes, pretty much every listening room needs at least a few EQ adjustments. And many times, the bass problems can reach higher up in frequency (but still under the transition frequency range) than what the subwoofers' built-in EQ reaches, when the LPF is likely set to 80 Hz or under. That's why it can be better to use an external DSP than the built-in one in a subwoofer.
The bolded part is a generalisation I don't agree with. I have, over the past 10-15 years, analyzed 500-1000 different tracks, and there is much more low-bass energy in music than many people think, and there's a large difference in sound even when the subwoofers are "only" taking care of the frequency region the main speakers can't handle, even with in-room gain.
I simply don't think you should make that generalisation, people use all types of loudspeakers, and very few of them are capable of a truly full-range sound. Many people choose not to use subwoofers at all because they find it hard to get them to integrate seamlessly with the main speakers, but this negative talk about subwoofers not making much of a difference if not crossed over higher is like the final nail in the coffin for them, because they obviously wanted a more extended bass response than what their current main speakers are capable of.
I don’t think those people you are describing are more likely to correctly use the DSP capability built into the subwoofers, so that can hardly be a useful argument for any particular integration solution.
I hope you don't take this post of mine as any arguments against your preferred ways of integrating subwoofers, but when reading this forum, I see many people who I believe are technically knowledgeable enough, but they have still given up on subwoofers completely in favor of no subwoofers at all. So, from an overall performance perspective for reaching a full-range sound, I don't think the method is necessarily that important as long as the goal is reached of seamlessly integrating the subwoofers for a full-range sound. I'm sure that last bit of bass extension can make a huge difference for many music lovers.
If the external DSP exists, yes.
I have done the same, and there are not loads of track with lots of data under 30hz, and combine that with the fact that most people listen at so moderate levels that this isn't really audible. I'm not saying it doesn't make a difference, I'm saying it's a shame to use the subwoofer purely for the last 0.5 octaves, when it could have contributed to so much more.
I partly agree. Some have speakers that doesn't extend that low (like smaller bookshelf speakers), and then of course I agree. But a lot of speakers extend pretty low with the help of room gain. The problem (that could have been solved with a sub) arguably isn't primarily extension, but rather room integration + capacity.
I agree, so that's why we include support for setting up and integrating.
I will absolutely admit that integrating subwoofers in a good way takes both knowledge and patience, so for the (perhaps vast majority) who are missing one or both, perhaps the REL approach is indeed better than failing to integrate and then throwing out the subwoofer alltogether.
MasterApex
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Exploring the same idea to get a pair S510 or S812 connecting to main amps with main full range speaker .
Checking to see if you think the bass for REL is coherent with the bass from main speakers or you have to adjust the phase ?
Also can the high level input be driven from monoblock like Mark Levinson 536 ?
Thanks
