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Regarding Impedance NEWBIE ALERT.

eidoscognitio

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Hello, and good evening everyone.

THis is somehow the most silly question you´ll ever get here. For curiosity sake, I want to build a speaker cabinet with three main components

A small speaker rated at 12OHM / 50W (as a woofer)
A small TV speaker rated at 16OHM / 2.5W (mid range)
and a very tiny speaker rated at 3OHM / 3W (tweeter)

I´ve seen online ohm calculators online, but it seems to me I´m doing something wrong at some point
What would be your take at the final impedance of the box?

I won´t use a crossover, since I´m planning to use some capacitors to kill the bass for the midrange and tweeter.

What would you suggest, besides saving up for some real speakers? :)

Thank you so much in advance.
 

staticV3

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You can use the free software VituixCAD to calculate the final impedance response of your system based on the individual impedance of each driver and your capacitor high pass filter.
Note that your speakers do not have a flat 12/16/3Ω impedance. Instead, their impedance will vary with frequency.
To get accurate results, you have to enter the actual impedance response of each speaker into VituixCAD.
 

rwortman

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I won´t use a crossover, since I´m planning to use some capacitors to kill the bass for the midrange and tweeter.
”Some capacitors to kill bass for the midrange and tweeter” is a crossover. You can’t guess the nominal impedance until you know what components you are using. You can do some math yourself or use a circuit calculator. You can measure it after you build it.
 
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eidoscognitio

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”Some capacitors to kill bass for the midrange and tweeter” is a crossover. You can’t guess the nominal impedance until you know what components you are using. You can do some math yourself or use a circuit calculator. You can measure it after you build it.
Well, as I stated, I´m a newbie, but I read the impedance settings and wattage from the back of each speaker, and it shows as I wrote above.

I also have a tester, a really basic and unreliable one, that is able to read OHMs from speakers, I could measure each one to check.

Thanks for the hint!
 

rwortman

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You need to build the speaker with everything connected. Then you need a signal generator, a noninductive resistor, and an oscilloscope or a voltmeter that will read correctly through the audio band. A simple ohmmeter will give you DC resistance which is only part of impedance.
 

Blumlein 88

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Impedance is for AC. If you just use a cheap multimeter set to ohms you'll get a reading, usually one lower than the speaker impedance when the speaker is in use. It is a little more complicated than that.

It is worth your time to read some books to learn the basics first. Just not something easily imparted in forum posts.

Designing, Building and Testing your own speakers by David Weems is an older book, but a simple introduction to the basic issues.

Loudspeaker Design Cookbook by Vance Dickinson is a good 2nd book. It has been updated.

There may be other worthy books I'm not aware of perhaps others could point to those.
 
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eidoscognitio

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You need to build the speaker with everything connected. Then you need a signal generator, a noninductive resistor, and an oscilloscope or a voltmeter that will read correctly through the audio band. A simple ohmmeter will give you DC resistance which is only part of impedance.
I will try to get the resources. But to cut a long story short: If I wire all the mentioned above speakers in paralell, will it be safe to use with a YAMAHA RX-V367? That claims it needs speakers from 6 to 8ohm (Switchable) ?
 

Blumlein 88

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I will try to get the resources. But to cut a long story short: If I wire all the mentioned above speakers in paralell, will it be safe to use with a YAMAHA RX-V367? That claims it needs speakers from 6 to 8ohm (Switchable) ?
Borderline. If the ratings are accurate you are looking at 5.6 ohms.
 

DVDdoug

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A small speaker rated at 12OHM / 50W (as a woofer)
A small TV speaker rated at 16OHM / 2.5W (mid range)
and a very tiny speaker rated at 3OHM / 3W (tweeter)
Those are all rather "odd". Most speakers are 4 or 8 Ohms. Some car woofers are 2 or even 1 Ohm.

Just some general thoughts & information...

Impedance is similar to resistance and both are measured in Ohms, except impedance is frequency dependent* and you can get phase-shifts. So I'm going to simplify by talking about resistance.

When you put resistances in parallel the total resistance drops. With a 3-Ohm speaker the total will be LESS than 3-Ohms.

If you put two 8-Ohm speakers in parallel you get 4-Ohms. In series they simply sum, so two 8-Ohm speakers in series is 16-Ohms. With 4 or 16 matched speakers you can make a series-parallel combination with the same impedance as one speaker. (But you can't put a woofer & tweeter in series and if you put them in series along with a capacitor it will block the low frequencies to both.)

The formula for parallel resistors is: 1/ (1/R1) + (1/R2) + (1/R3).... 1/(1/12) + (1/16) + (1/3) = 2.09 Ohms.
If you just have two resistors there is a simpler formula: (R1 x R2)/R1 + R2)

Resistance (and impedance) is "the resistance to current flow". Lower resistance means more current flow (given the same voltage) The relationship between voltage, current, and resistance is defined by Ohm's Law.

There is a plumbing analogy where water pressure is voltage, water flow is current flow, and a skinny pipe (or a valve turned partially-on) is high-resistance and a fat pipe is low resistance. ...But when you cut a water pipe you get zero resistance and water flows-out all over the place. When you cut a wire you get infinite resistance and no current flows. And with no water-resistance nothing burns-up.

Usually the voltage is controlled or constant so current depends on resistance. Here in the U.S., there is 120VAC at the power outlet and that voltage is always there (unless there is a switch to turn it off). If you plug-in a 100W light bulb, a little less than 1 Amp flows. A toaster or hair drier might "draw" 12 Amps. If you plug-in (and turn-on) two toasters you'll probably blow a breaker and then voltage drops to zero.

If your speaker impedance is too low you might fry your amplifier, or if you are lucky it may just go into temporary thermal shut-down.

Power (Wattage) is calculated as Voltage X Current so if you cut the speaker impedance in half you can get twice current and twice the power, assuming the amplifier's power supply can supply the current and assuming the amplifier doesn't burn-up.

Higher impedance won't hurt the amplifier but you get less power.

A proper crossover distributes the voltage & current so you can use an 8-Ohm woofer and an 8-Ohm tweeter (and an 8-Ohm midrange) you have an 8-Ohm speaker.

Just a capacitor to the tweeter means that at high frequencies, current flows through the woofer and the tweeter so it would be 4-Ohms at high frequencies and 8-Ohms at lower frequencies. You can usually "get away" with that (with an amplifier rated for 8-Ohms) because the high frequencies are usually "weaker" (less power and current) and to some extent the woofer's voice coil acts like an inductor which has higher impedance (inductive reactance) at high frequencies.









* Capacitors have capacitive reactance which is also Ohms and an impedance component. As you may know, capacitive reactance is inversely proportional to frequency and that's why they "block" low frequencies when in series, and they bock DC which is "zero Hz".
 

amirm

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I will try to get the resources. But to cut a long story short: If I wire all the mentioned above speakers in paralell, will it be safe to use with a YAMAHA RX-V367? That claims it needs speakers from 6 to 8ohm (Switchable) ?
I would not go by those specs. Just about every amplifier out there will handle loads down to 4 ohm or even lower as long as you don't crank it to max. And stay there for too long. If the amplifier in the AVR doesn't like it, it will shut itself down.
 

Blumlein 88

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we must be using different calculations. 12, 16, and 3Ω in parallel gives me a total impedance of 2.09Ω
OOOPS!

I read 3OHMS as 30 ohms. So definitely not guaranteed safe. Those paralleled will be about 2.1 ohms.
 

Chrispy

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Hello, and good evening everyone.

THis is somehow the most silly question you´ll ever get here. For curiosity sake, I want to build a speaker cabinet with three main components

A small speaker rated at 12OHM / 50W (as a woofer)
A small TV speaker rated at 16OHM / 2.5W (mid range)
and a very tiny speaker rated at 3OHM / 3W (tweeter)

I´ve seen online ohm calculators online, but it seems to me I´m doing something wrong at some point
What would be your take at the final impedance of the box?

I won´t use a crossover, since I´m planning to use some capacitors to kill the bass for the midrange and tweeter.

What would you suggest, besides saving up for some real speakers? :)

Thank you so much in advance.
Just seems you want to simply connect various drivers and no consideration for the cabinet or a crossover network's influence and no experience overall.....not sure what the goal is.
 

Laotze

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I think the resistance of a finished speaker is usually quoted as the lowest impedance between 20-20khz (or whatever frequency range they quote for the speaker). They don't actually quote the DC resistance. Calculating the DC resistance of a parallel network of drivers seems meaningless, especially since your midrange and tweeter will (hopefully) not ever see DC current through the coupling capacitors in the crossover.


So, with a properly designed crossover your final impedance would be around 3 ohms.

If the sensitivities of your driver's are sufficiently matched at 2.87 volts, and your amp can do 3 ohms, your project might work. However, you are going to need a lot more math and physics than just ohm's "law".
 

Chrispy

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I think the resistance of a finished speaker is usually quoted as the lowest impedance between 20-20khz (or whatever frequency range they quote for the speaker). They don't actually quote the DC resistance. Calculating the DC resistance of a parallel network of drivers seems meaningless, especially since your midrange and tweeter will (hopefully) not ever see DC current through the coupling capacitors in the crossover.


So, with a properly designed crossover your final impedance would be around 3 ohms.

If the sensitivities of your driver's are sufficiently matched at 2.87 volts, and your amp can do 3 ohms, your project might work. However, you are going to need a lot more math and physics than just ohm's "law".
No, it is not quoted at the lowest point (altho some will point out the lowest point aside from the nominal rating), it is a nominal rating and the application varies a bit . Try this perhaps https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/loudspeaker-sensitivity
 

OldHvyMec

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To be candid, a better suggestion to the "NEWBE" is buy a speaker already assembled before you do harm to other equipment.
I suspect you're measuring just speakers? OR are the speakers in a box with a crossover? (I'd like to see the XO)

I'm going to help you with some basics and NO fancy words.
I also want you to understand I'm left handed. Most "thing" for me are backwards. I'm HARD wired now to learn the right way. I think!
It was a tough journey considering power tools alone, not to mention ZIPPERS and cars from England. :)

Onward!

Speakers = drivers
Box = the cabinet the speakers are in
Crossover or XO = a way to filter the correct frequencies to the correct drivers through an assembly of know parts in a known way. Frequency dividers
Passive XO = components after the power amp and before and after a driver. Note: Normally they are point to point or on an ICB. <---Look that up
OXO = Passive XO outside the box but still after the power amp. TWO boxes one big (cabinet) one small (OXO)

The overall purpose of selecting the correct drivers via their specs is a starting point. Then you match the efficiency of the drivers.
A type of measurement that is long standing is 1 watt @ 1 meter @ 8ohms =.
80% compared to 100% is going to be quieter and less efficient. It will require more power. It doesn't mean you can't drive an 80%
speaker to a considerable volume. I assure you, you can.

Why waste a bunch of money just because you want to turn it up, when a better selection of speakers will net you a bigger
bang for your buck..

Using 3 different types of speakers with
3 different static ohm ratings as you have posted would require quite a bit of work and truthfully, a bad place to start if they don't
already have an XO designed.

I'm thinking nightmare for everyone involved.

What do I know. I try staying out of trouble, not get out of trouble, Amigo. It's a left handed thing. :)

Regards.
 
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eidoscognitio

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Just seems you want to simply connect various drivers and no consideration for the cabinet or a crossover network's influence and no experience overall.....not sure what the goal is.
Maybe I must explain a bit further. Before that, I appreciate your will to help guys.
It happens that I´m not, let´s say, wealthy or with the resources to buy new speakers. I like the tech part, and I really respect your remarks about the propper way to do things here. Those "drivers" were found in the trash, and the allegedly tweeter seems to have a nice sound overal. The "woofers" come from some rescued speakers from a flood.

I managed to get the help from a friend to build the enclosures, and since I got an amp from a dear friend that moved out (he let me have it) I don´t want to mess it for good. So I came with a diagram for the drivers. Once again, I REALLY appreciate your formality regading science and true knowledge, I know this is not a phony social network and many, many fine and proffesional reviews can be found here.

1674735226224.png

The drivers are these: The "Tweeter" reads 4 ohm / 3w
1674735794967.png

The "midrange" (which is REALLY an OLD tv speaker reads 16 ohm / 2.5 w
1674735846302.png


And the "woofer" is a generic speaker found at a cheap LG enclosure

1674735951909.png


I don´t know how to build a crossover, yet I want TO LEARN how to build a propper one, but I don´t have the money resources for that,

I´m a bit ashamed to admit, but I´m a plain poor venezuelan trying to build a nice sounding speaker with no money and from bits and pieces
that comes from trading some materials and "found" drivers from the town´s thrash.
 
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