Rega Isis reference (CD Player)

[RandomEar]

not sure what you are trying to say here?

Correctly implemented DACs don't have a sound signature anymore and this has been the case for a long time.

I just said that the two different audioengines sounded totally different.

That is unlikely, unless one unit was broken or configured differently (EQ, filter). Unless you tested level-matched, with very short switching time and blind, you can't reliably tell if there were any differences. I assume that you did not employ these essential controls, so the answer is the same again: There likely was no audible difference.

The exact same music the high frequencies literally made me wince with the later ESS ones, but the AKM didn't have this horrible harshness.
I don't really care whether it was the chip, or some other change to the circuitry in the thing itself.

See for yourself how the AKM and ESS chips perform identical in this example. This is, of course, not a comparison of every DAC with every other. But it shows that the chips do not perform substantially different. Everybody claiming the opposite is - forgive me - clueless. The spec sheets of both manufacturers already tell you that the claimed differences do not exist.

After googling AKM vs ESS, there are hundreds of pages of people with the exact same observation as me.

People also repeat again and again that "digital sounds harsh" and other absolute horse-s-h-i-t. Doesn't make it true. If an absurd idea has been planted once, it can perpetuate forever if only enough uninformed people keep repeating it. It is on the people claiming it to prove that - despite all the objective evidence to the contrary - their claim holds some truth.

It would be relatively easy to do so: Get a couple of friends together, bring at least two DACs which supposedly sound so different, level-match them well (<0.2 dB, ideally <0.1) and ensure that the listening tests are at the very least done blind. Ideally, they would use double blind testing, but that can be a bit more cumbersome to set up. Do the test, document the results, done. If the differences are so abundantly clear and everybody is so sure about this, why did nobody ever perform this easy test?

I'm the worlds biggest audio skeptic after having grown up with the industry from being a kid, so know first hand the about of absolute bull there is around.

If you really are a sceptic, why would you not be much more sceptical about the reliability of your own senses? Our hearing is easy to trick [1, 2]. Bias is a real thing. Echoic memory is super short. All that needs to be controlled for in a listening test.

 

[rakka]

Correctly implemented DACs don't have a sound signature anymore and this has been the case for a long time.


That is unlikely, unless one unit was broken or configured differently (EQ, filter). Unless you tested level-matched, with very short switching time and blind, you can't reliably tell if there were any differences. I assume that you did not employ these essential controls, so the answer is the same again: There likely was no audible difference.


See for yourself how the AKM and ESS chips perform identical in this example. This is, of course, not a comparison of every DAC with every other. But it shows that the chips do not perform substantially different. Everybody claiming the opposite is - forgive me - clueless. The spec sheets of both manufacturers already tell you that the claimed differences do not exist.


People also repeat again and again that "digital sounds harsh" and other absolute horse-s-h-i-t. Doesn't make it true. If an absurd idea has been planted once, it can perpetuate forever if only enough uninformed people keep repeating it. It is on the people claiming it to prove that - despite all the objective evidence to the contrary - their claim holds some truth.

It would be relatively easy to do so: Get a couple of friends together, bring at least two DACs which supposedly sound so different, level-match them well (<0.2 dB, ideally <0.1) and ensure that the listening tests are at the very least done blind. Ideally, they would use double blind testing, but that can be a bit more cumbersome to set up. Do the test, document the results, done. If the differences are so abundantly clear and everybody is so sure about this, why did nobody ever perform this easy test?


If you really are a sceptic, why would you not be much more sceptical about the reliability of your own senses? Our hearing is easy to trick [1, 2]. Bias is a real thing. Echoic memory is super short. All that needs to be controlled for in a listening test.

The sound difference was plainly obvious. Whether output stage, filters etc, I really don't care.
This isnt a case of psychometrics or "believing". The difference as it was replicted by getting a used older model and being able to go back to the original sound. When the sharpness of EXACTLY the same tune hurts your ears and makes you wince with the harshess, this isnt imagination.

Normally audio clowns purchase justify and convince themselves that the change they made or the money they spent resulted in some form of improvement, but in this case the opposite was true and I disliked the newer model intensely.

There was no "bias" or whatever garbage you are going to come out with to try and discredit me as some sort of liar, the difference was as obvious and stark as changing your amplifier brand or speakers, or whatever.

Even rega picked Burr brown or Wolfson DACs because of their "softer or smoother" sound type, I forget exactly which, so quite obviously to anyone with a brain, a different DAC implementation has a distinct effect on the sound.

In Audioengines B1 case, whether a filter, a DAC, or different output circuitry I couldnt really care, but the newer 32bit ESS ones vs the older 24bit AKM ones were awful. I think they may have switched because of chip shortages around or just after covid tbh.

Cables, interconnects, dont even get me started on that shit, but amps, dacs, speakers, sure, huge differences of course.
I'm sure you will come back to me and call me a liar, or I was imagining it like seeing a UFO or a ghost, the difference was as dramatic as a slap in the face, and I was mighty pissed off as I really enjoyed the 24bit B1 before "upgrading" to the newer model.

What the newer model DID improve on however, was the delay/lag, much faster and quicker to start playing sound and pairing etc, so not all bad I guess, but I guess that's BT 5.0 vs 5.4 etc.
Why do you think i started googling this stuff and saw forums claiming exactly the same as my experience. I had no idea whatsoever that a DAC could sound different to the other, I went in blind simply expecting the newer one to offer faster throughput for a higher bitrate or better range etc.

Only after I was massively pissed off did I start seeing hundreds of people online talking about AKM vs ESS sound differences, before I was sonically assaulted by how bad the newer ESS version was, I didn't even know they had different chips in them, and thought it was just a bluetooth upgrade, so I wasnt really expecting or looking for much.

 

[Purité Audio]

A DAC has never made me wince with pain, I suppose if you dropped one on your toe.
Keith

 

[RandomEar]

The sound difference was plainly obvious. Whether output stage, filters etc, I really don't care.
This isnt a case of psychometrics or "believing". The difference as it was replicted by getting a used older model and being able to go back to the original sound. When the sharpness of EXACTLY the same tune hurts your ears and makes you wince with the harshess, this isnt imagination.

Again: Unlikely and you simply ignore how fallible our senses are. As already explained above, results from listening test are absolutely worthless without the proper controls - which you did not implement.

Normally audio clowns purchase justify and convince themselves that the change they made or the money they spent resulted in some form of improvement, but in this case the opposite was true and I disliked the newer model intensely.

There was no "bias" or whatever garbage you are going to come out with to try and discredit me as some sort of liar, the difference was as obvious and stark as changing your amplifier brand or speakers, or whatever.

Nobody accused you of lying or anything even remotely close to it. There is zero reason to be this aggressive.

If you think bias doesn't exist or doesn't affect you, I am sorry but you are wrong or don't understand how it works. Read the linked sources, they are a good starting point. In short: If you are human, you are affected by bias. That's just how our brains work. It affects me in the same way, too.

Even rega picked Burr brown or Wolfson DACs because of their "softer or smoother" sound type, I forget exactly which, so quite obviously to anyone with a brain, a different DAC implementation has a distinct effect on the sound.

Don't know whether they said that or not. If so, it's pure marketing blubber. The engineers at ESS and AKM or Cirrus also have brains and write the spec sheets for their designs, which don't agree with your assessment of the situation.

In Audioengines B1 case, whether a filter, a DAC, or different output circuitry I couldnt really care, but the newer 32bit ESS ones vs the older 24bit AKM ones were awful. I think they may have switched because of chip shortages around or just after covid tbh.

Cables, interconnects, dont even get me started on that shit, but amps, dacs, speakers, sure, huge differences of course.
I'm sure you will come back to me and call me a liar, or I was imagining it like seeing a UFO or a ghost, the difference was as dramatic as a slap in the face, and I was mighty pissed off as I really enjoyed the 24bit B1 before "upgrading" to the newer model.

Again: Nobody said you were lying. No need for being defensive. Being wrong about a topic happens and does not mean anybody lied.

However, I've got some bad news for you: Even most amps can't be distinguished in level-matched blind testing. Many people think that they could and then fail spectacularly in blind testing (p. 80 ff).

The measurements also support this idea. People fail to identify distortion below about -40 dB in real music, with some exceptions in tests using pure tones reaching slightly below -50 dB. Nearly all solid state amps clear that level. Don't argue, do the test.

If distortion isn't audible, noise is low enough and the frequency response is flat, there's not much else we could hear to differentiate the devices. Same with amps, DACs, pre-amps, whatever.

What the newer model DID improve on however, was the delay/lag, much faster and quicker to start playing sound and pairing etc, so not all bad I guess, but I guess that's BT 5.0 vs 5.4 etc.

That's good. If they improved the device in this aspect, why would they accept any deterioration in another (sound)?

Why do you think i started googling this stuff and saw forums claiming exactly the same as my experience. I had no idea whatsoever that a DAC could sound different to the other, I went in blind simply expecting the newer one to offer faster throughput for a higher bitrate or better range etc.

Only after I was massively pissed off did I start seeing hundreds of people online talking about AKM vs ESS sound differences, before I was sonically assaulted by how bad the newer ESS version was, I didn't even know they had different chips in them, and thought it was just a bluetooth upgrade, so I wasnt really expecting or looking for much.

Again: What people report form their flawed subjective testing is irrelevant. Repeatedly stating that the earth is flat on the relevant forums also didn't make it true.

Think about it: There's equally many people claiming on those forums that cables definitely make a difference. You say yourself that this is bulls-h-i-t. How likely is it that they're all wrong in this case, but right in another (DACs)? It's illogical to trust the same people who are blatantly wrong on one topic (cables) would be right on another topic (DACs). On the contrary, it would be logical to assume that if those people fool themselves about one thing, they are clearly doing something wrong and are extremely likely to fool themselves about other things, too.

 

[rakka]

A DAC has never made me wince with pain, I suppose if you dropped one on your toe.
Keith

Are you calling me a liar?

 

[rakka]

Again: Unlikely and you simply ignore how fallible our senses are. As already explained above, results from listening test are absolutely worthless without the proper controls - which you did not implement.


Nobody accused you of lying or anything even remotely close to it. There is zero reason to be this aggressive.

If you think bias doesn't exist or doesn't affect you, I am sorry but you are wrong or don't understand how it works. Read the linked sources, they are a good starting point. In short: If you are human, you are affected by bias. That's just how our brains work. It affects me in the same way, too.


Don't know whether they said that or not. If so, it's pure marketing blubber. The engineers at ESS and AKM or Cirrus also have brains and write the spec sheets for their designs, which don't agree with your assessment of the situation.


Again: Nobody said you were lying. No need for being defensive. Being wrong about a topic happens and does not mean anybody lied.

However, I've got some bad news for you: Even most amps can't be distinguished in level-matched blind testing. Many people think that they could and then fail spectacularly in blind testing (p. 80 ff).

The measurements also support this idea. People fail to identify distortion below about -40 dB in real music, with some exceptions in tests using pure tones reaching slightly below -50 dB. Nearly all solid state amps clear that level. Don't argue, do the test.

If distortion isn't audible, noise is low enough and the frequency response is flat, there's not much else we could hear to differentiate the devices. Same with amps, DACs, pre-amps, whatever.


That's good. If they improved the device in this aspect, why would they accept any deterioration in another (sound)?


Again: What people report form their flawed subjective testing is irrelevant. Repeatedly stating that the earth is flat on the relevant forums also didn't make it true.

Think about it: There's equally many people claiming on those forums that cables definitely make a difference. You say yourself that this is bulls-h-i-t. How likely is it that they're all wrong in this case, but right in another (DACs)? It's illogical to trust the same people who are blatantly wrong on one topic (cables) would be right on another topic (DACs). On the contrary, it would be logical to assume that if those people fool themselves about one thing, they are clearly doing something wrong and are extremely likely to fool themselves about other things, too.

I'm not wrong, the difference was and IS night and day, anyone would hear the difference.
Sorry your feelings are hurt because objective reality trumps your dogma.
Again, I didnt go LOOKING for any difference at all, it slapped me in the face because it was so obvious.
This wasnt a case of me sitting there seeing if I could hear anything different, or pretending I could, please, cut the BS presumtions from your little high horse.
You seem to be suggesting above that people cannnot or should not be able to hear the difference between amps, which is total nonsense.
Amps sound radically different for a variety of obvious reasons. Surely if you had the faintest idea what you were talking about you would realise this?
I actually grew up with a father who designed amps for a living for a large hifi manufacturer, so I'll take his knowledge, and my knowledge and experiences over your very odd and utterly ill-informed position.

 

[Svend P]

Are you calling me a liar?

You need to relax. No one is calling you a liar. We have all been fooled by marketing and perception bias in the past.

Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[rakka]

You need to relax. No one is calling you a liar. We have all been fooled by marketing and perception bias in the past.

Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I repeat I have not been fooled by anything. There was no "marketing" I was "taken in" by.
The fact that someone is literally posting that amps cannot sound different tells me all I need to know about that posters intelligence.

 

[aagstn]

Ah comparing actual reality to flat Earth nonsense, what a piece of work you are.
The testing is not subjective in the slightest. As I said and will say again, for the same test tracks 100 times out of 100 I would tell the difference, and I will state again I dont care what the actual reason is whether its output stage, whether its a filter or filtering giving the sound an edge or not, its FACT. I dont need to convince some nutcase on the internet about it, and given a DAC actually has components and signal circuitry, its more likely than not to have the ability to sound different for a variety of reasons over any cable nonense. I'm bowing out of this, you have clearly exposed yourself as a moron.

I don't doubt you heard a difference, I just doubt your ears were the reason you heard them. You believe the ESS and AKM sound different and so you hear the difference you expect to hear. You are definitely not alone.

 

[Svend P]

I repeat I have not been fooled by anything.

You don't know until you have done a proper blind test

 

[BlueTunes]

You don't know until you have done a proper blind test

Who here has ever actually done one or properly?

 

[Purité Audio]

I have, it is revelatory, but a bit of a kerfuffle, but worth it if you really want to know.
Keith

 

[Jcrow]

Are you calling me a liar?

I think he’s calling you a fool I think.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

Who here has ever actually done one or properly?

Honestly, even doing it roughly right can be very sobering.
I’ve heard “night and day differences”. Differences that no way could be sighted bias - they’re so huge.
These enormous differences have vanished in single blind tests that were level matched crudely with an iPhone decibel meter.

 

[Jcrow]

When the sharpness of EXACTLY the same tune hurts your ears and makes you wince with the harshess, this isnt imagination.

Dude, if this DAC is making your ears bleed, maybe it is broken or something.
Giving a new meaning to ‘razor-sharp’ clarity.
Should be a new tagline for ESS: Clear as glass in your ear-drum.

 

[RandomEar]

Ah comparing actual reality to flat Earth nonsense, what a piece of work, bravo you.

You're loosing track of what is being discussed.

The testing is not subjective in the slightest.

Incorrect. Quoting Wikipedia here:

Something is subjective if it is dependent on minds (such as biases, perception, emotions, opinions, imaginary objects, or conscious experiences).
Something is objective if it can be confirmed or assumed independently of any minds.

Clearly, your testing was not independent of your mind. Nothing was measured or evaluated objectively in any way. In conclusion, your testing was subjective. I don't even know why you would dispute such a trivial statement.

As I said and will say again, for the same test tracks 100 times out of 100 I would tell the difference, and I will state again I dont care what the actual reason is whether its output stage, whether its a filter or filtering giving the sound an edge or not, its FACT.

Incorrect. No subjective evaluation is factual. That is the essence of subjectivity.

I dont need to convince some nutcase on the internet about it, and given a DAC actually has components and signal circuitry, its more likely than not to have the ability to sound different for a variety of reasons over any cable nonense. I'm bowing out of this, you have clearly exposed yourself as a moron.

Aggressive much? Calling people names and ignoring all logic and valid arguments says a lot more about you than about the "nutcases" and "morons" you're arguing with. Good riddance.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Who here has ever actually done one or properly?

I have taken part.

 

[Mort]

I repeat I have not been fooled by anything. There was no "marketing" I was "taken in" by.
The fact that someone is literally posting that amps cannot sound different tells me all I need to know about that posters intelligence.

Then this probably won't be the place you'll want to hang out.

If you stick around, you might have your mind changed.

 

[Beave]

Let us remember that we can't rule out the possibility that he really is hearing a difference - because the newer one he hates is defective and not performing as intended.

Without measurements, we don't know.

 

[JeffS7444]

Frequency response: 17 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 0.1 dB
THD+Noise <0.0013%
Weight: 19 kg
Price: $11,845 USD