Rega Isis reference (CD Player)

[Beave]

For €10,000 you want to be expecting this player to be a great transport with an absolutely stellar analogue output.

It will be intriguing to read how you feel it differs (if at all) sonically from the integrated one in your Denon amp.

All DACs are the same, etc. yet here we are on a site dedicated to testing them and getting vastly differing results so implementation is everything and for that money and product title (reference ) it's fair to expect that the implementation is also stellar.

I had a digital amp and a digital cd player (different brands) and I much prefered the DAC in the amp so only used the CD player as a transport as it had optical out.
The player was typical of cd players in that they are limited by the format and are a pig to use so I went to streaming and never looked back.

Your experience with this player will be interesting to read.

vastly differing results from DACs? Well, maybe in the sense that they range from really good to exceedingly excellent?

 

[BlueTunes]

I've read the reviews. There are a small number of badly implemented DACs. But in the $100+ range, and often cheaper, it's been a solved problem for decades. If you read @NTTY reviews of CD players going back to the 1980s you can see this.

It can't be both solved and not solved (badly implemented).

Rega (the subject of the OP) has been shown to have awful DAC implementation by Amir.

Rega DAC-R DAC Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Rega DAC-R stereo DAC. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $1,195 when it came out in 2015. I suspect extra money had gone into making the top curved down but it doesn't do anything for me. Fortunately the user interface makes up for...

www.audiosciencereview.com

So the performance of this CD output isn't (or shouldn't be ) subjective here.

Unless you are saying that even as bad as Amirs review of the Rega is, it doesn't matter?

 

[Mort]

vastly differing results from DACs? Well, maybe in the sense that they range from really good to exceedingly excellent?

Not all. 'Measurement and Review of Schiit BiFrost Multibit DAC'

 

[Beave]

Not all. 'Measurement and Review of Schiit BiFrost Multibit DAC'

Is this a case where the exception proves the rule?

 

[Mort]

Is this a case where the exception proves the rule?

There are others. It's not many. Inexpensive, competent dacs are the norm.

 

[Beave]

There are others. It's not many. Inexpensive, competent dacs are the norm.

Agreed.

 

[Bland_username42069]

If you want a new cd player just get a Denon that matches your amp.

£7000 for a cd player is just a ridiculous con and it won’t make one iota of difference.

 

[Svend P]

Unless you are saying that even as bad as Amirs review of the Rega is, it doesn't matter?

Yes. It will most likely be inaudible. Amirm only rates from a technical standpoint.

Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements

Introduction A recurring theme on ASR is whether or not the various measured qualities of the devices are audible. In this post, I'll present some clear and visual thresholds for when those imperfections can be considered a potentially audible concern. I will not explain the basics of amp/DAC...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[BlueTunes]

Yes. It will most likely be inaudible. Amirm only rates from a technical standpoint.

Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements

Introduction A recurring theme on ASR is whether or not the various measured qualities of the devices are audible. In this post, I'll present some clear and visual thresholds for when those imperfections can be considered a potentially audible concern. I will not explain the basics of amp/DAC...

www.audiosciencereview.com

That's an over simplification and not true imho.

Again, as mentioned previously, there is the DAC itself and it's implementation and whilst your comment can and should probably be applicable to the DAC raw performance itself, how that performance is resolved into the output is very much a topic for objective review and results. A noisy and poorly engineered output is going to be noisy and poorly engineered and pollute the sound as Amirm oft states in his reviews.

Unless you are adamant that the output of any DAC is effectively a base line std regardless of topology?

In that case, what's the point of reviewing them at all and to the detail this site goes to?

Why bother testing human listening equipment which by design performs beyond the limits of the human ability to listen?

Look, I get the idea that the technology is solved, and my layman knowledge doesn't disagree but you still have to put that in a container for human consumption and interaction.

My Mrs will not store food in plastic containers because she says she can taste it (the plastic). The food is great (she's a great cook) but the delivery is critical and can be ruined by poor implementation.

I mean, if truly, the digital source is a fully solved tech and that's it. Job done, why bother?

 

[Bland_username42069]

That's an over simplification and not true imho.

Again, as mentioned previously, there is the DAC itself and it's implementation and whilst your comment can and should probably be applicable to the DAC raw performance itself, how that performance is resolved into the output is very much a topic for objective review and results. A noisy and poorly engineered output is going to be noisy and poorly engineered and pollute the sound as Amirm oft states in his reviews.

Unless you are adamant that the output of any DAC is effectively a base line std regardless of topology?

In that case, what's the point of reviewing them at all and to the detail this site goes to?

Why bother testing human listening equipment which by design performs beyond the limits of the human ability to listen?

Look, I get the idea that the technology is solved, and my layman knowledge doesn't disagree but you still have to put that in a container for human consumption and interaction.

My Mrs will not store food in plastic containers because she says she can taste it (the plastic). The food is great (she's a great cook) but the delivery is critical and can be ruined by poor implementation.

I mean, if truly, the digital source is a fully solved tech and that's it. Job done, why bother?

That’s why people are especially interested in speaker reviews now because it has been proved time and time again that a $100 “no name” Chinese DAC can outperform “audiophile” DACs costs 1000s

 

[Svend P]

mean, if truly, the digital source is a fully solved tech and that's it. Job done, why bother?

Because producers and hifi-dealers have to eat. Notice how Amirm never listens to how a DAC performs.

I have a scale for how much measurements matter for each category of products:

DACs: 100%
Amplifiers (headphone and speaker): 80 to 90% due to variability of available power. Hard to internalize how much power is available/enough without listening tests.
Speakers: 70 to 80%
Headphones: 50 to 80% (measurements too variable)

This is why you see me do listening tests for the last two categories and half of second (headphone amps).

Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

Is it true that using a slow filter gives better SINAD than a sharp filter? In general it is the other way around. Look at my THD+N tests versus frequency that go up to 20 kHz: The red diagonal line is the result of a very slow filter. The measured THD+N shoots so high it is off the charts...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[pinger]

Because producers and hifi-dealers have to eat. Notice how Amirm never listens to how a DAC performs.

Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

Is it true that using a slow filter gives better SINAD than a sharp filter? In general it is the other way around. Look at my THD+N tests versus frequency that go up to 20 kHz: The red diagonal line is the result of a very slow filter. The measured THD+N shoots so high it is off the charts...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And the "reviews" in the mags like Stereophile are paid for by the advertisers. Hmmm....

 

[JeremyFife]

it's not a pure digital source.
That's not what a CD player does.

You are thinking of CD transports

A CD Player is a transport + DAC ... as I suggested, read some reviews and see how unnecessary it is to spend money for digital sources. I wasn't explicit about the electronics needed in the digital chain (i.e. the DAC) but it's the same advice.

 

[diddley]

Denon DCD-900NE Review (CD Player)

Hello Everyone, This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon DCD-900NE stereo CD Player and Transport. I previously reviewed the Marantz CD6007 which is in the same category. So much so that the packaging is identical, as well as the remote control, as well as the user guide. All...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I bought it and am very satisfied with it. And it's rather cheap.

 

[BlueTunes]

A CD Player is a transport + DAC ... as I suggested, read some reviews and see how unnecessary it is to spend money for digital sources. I wasn't explicit about the electronics needed in the digital chain (i.e. the DAC) but it's the same advice.

Without wanting to labour a point, in the context of this thread it's important to understand that a CD player is not primarily a "digital source" and indeed, the cheaper ones don't output a digital signal at all

The owner of this CD player won't be commenting on the digital output as that would be pointless.

They will be commenting on the analogue output the internal DAC and preamp provides the amp.

You could look at some of the reviews of this device yourself.

One particular reviewer made a good point:

"Is it a transport with a DAC or a DAC with a transport"

An interesting question given the topic.

 

[DSJR]

Im lucky enough to get Rega Isis reference player for a home demo in couple of days. I was wondering if people here have any previous experience about the player? I will post my own conclusion about it here but I would love hear what others have to say. Some reviews I found about it, seems that it could be a good one. But I am little spectical as the DAC seems so outdated to the modern requirements.

I know the Isis Valve model and it was very, very good 'sounding.' No proper specs or third party testing ever done to my knowledge, as measurements don't seem to matter to that crowd, at least to the end user... Rega seem to design their electronics in general as 'good enough,' which may be fine by audiophile standards of the dark ages of the 80s, but maybe less so today. The usually smaller independent Rega dealers would arguably have little access to proper far-eastern classic players of the 90s that many US and EU posters here would fondly remember (assuming they were old enough to remember that far back now - I'm NOT insulting here, it's a matter of my age pushing 70, coupled with my career in the industry going back to originally a Saturday job in 1973) and the main alternative reference for Rega Reference dealers is actually the double-priced Naim stuff (not sure if they even make a CD player now, but maybe a 500 series streamer?) - our local audio salon also loves the Accuphase range - and why shouldn't they as they also look gorgeous I don't think they're currently a Rega Reference dealer, but they have splashed out on a >ten grand Naia turntable it appears, from Rega's UK dealer list and they will be stocking the fourteen grand pre and power that's just launched...

I seem to remember from dealer gossip that hardly anyone at all bought the Isis and Osiris at full price in the UK when were they introduced, the thick end of ten years ago now? - and all the ones I saw for sale were a year or two later 'ex dem' at around half retail price I remember and at that price, there was a little flurry around the UK forums from the 'high end' bargain hunters that used to frequent them!!!

So, you pays yer money and takes yer choice here, especially as decent well made and performing models are more on the used market these days than new.

In the UK, Rega are an extremely honourable and stable stable brand which gives great spares and after-care via their limited dealer network should it be needed. Having said that and even so, in the past ten years, digital sources have moved on so quickly and reduced in price for the same or better performance, that you can get a 'reference' performance in dac technology at least for a hundred quid/dollars and the same with balanced outs and a display for say, £/$250 or so. Add a solid DVD player with digital outputs and there you go, although these days you may not get a display on the transport side...

 

[Mart68]

The Isis costs the thick end of eight grand here. No measurements available but Rega's previous form for amps and DACs shows they tend to be sloppy about power supply noise. Not that I'm saying that will be at all audible but for that money I expect close to perfection in every respect, we've seen from @NTTY reviews that much cheaper players (and some much older ones) manage it.

Of course if they did what any manufacturer should do and publish a full suite of measurements we wouldn't need to go on previous form. It's interesting that many don't want their products scrutinised in that way.

I think I would only consider it if I really like the looks and build (I don't, although not the worst I've seen) and if I was wealthy enough that the cost was not a consideration. Paying that sort of money for a CD player expecting it to 'sound better' than a cheaper player is not a good idea.

 

[NTTY]

Rega’s website say that they use an intelligent servo and that « For this reason the Isis will often play discs with marks or scratches that other players cannot read ». I’d love to verify if it repeats the good results of the Tascam CD-200, or the very old Yamaha CDX-393 with a Panasonic Servo (embedded with the DAC).

And Rega adds that «
However if the disc does not meet correct red book specification (such as a pirated disc or low quality high speed copies) then some discs may not be recognized and may fail to play». I suppose it means that it has difficulties with CDR. Be warned.

The user manual seems otherwise pretty old, mentioning a USB input limited to 16bits 44/48kHz which was true when using the standard driver of Windows Vista and XP that are mentioned in the documentation

Other than that 0.0013% of THD+N means max theoretical performance of the CDA, but the Valve version reduces that to 0.06% (-64dB) because of « even order distortion » as Rega mentions openly.

By the way, the valve version employs the old Wolfson WM8741, which I got to measure in the Pioneer PD-D9, which is also an SACD player and that, by the way, offers a perfect resistance to scratched CD (best that I can measure).

At this price point, I think Rega should offer SACD playback too, at least.

 

[Beave]

That's an over simplification and not true imho.

Again, as mentioned previously, there is the DAC itself and it's implementation and whilst your comment can and should probably be applicable to the DAC raw performance itself, how that performance is resolved into the output is very much a topic for objective review and results. A noisy and poorly engineered output is going to be noisy and poorly engineered and pollute the sound as Amirm oft states in his reviews.

Amir's measurements are for the entire product, including the DAC chip and its implementation circuitry.

The vast majority of them perform well enough to consider them audibly perfect.

 

[Beave]

And the "reviews" in the mags like Stereophile are paid for by the advertisers. Hmmm....

Well now, let's not resort to false accusations. The advertisers don't pay for reviews. The relationship is far more subtle (but, IMO, it's there nevertheless). There are certain manufacturers and advertisers that cultivate a buddy-buddy relationship with reviewers (hanging out at shows, for example), which can lead to other types of bias in reviewers and what gets reviewed.