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[Recommendations] Upgrading my old Hi-Fi setup

This may come as a surprise to you, Mr. Genelec-owner, but even for "only 2500 €", I don't want to have to choose! :D

I listen to a lot of music, AND I watch a lot of movies. I don't want to have two different audio systems (you can see them both in my picture). I want to replace them both with an A/V amplifier and a single set of speakers, that's all. :)
 
This may come as a surprise to you, Mr. Genelec-owner, but even for "only 2500 €", I don't want to have to choose! :D

I listen to a lot of music, AND I watch a lot of movies. I don't want to have two different audio systems (you can see them both in my picture). I want to replace them both with an A/V amplifier and a single set of speakers, that's all. :)
I dont understand the attitude.
 
There wasn't any attitude. I was just joking. Thankfully we can still have a lot of fun, it's not forbidden yet, yes? :D
Ok but you didn't really answer the question, either.

I think you are asking a lot for full range speakers to fill that space under 2500€
 
You know, actually I'd love to have a pair of 8361a's. Even better, I'd love a pair of D&D 8c's (I even visited their factory in Rotterdam, the photos are here). :p
I just happen to NOT want them right now, that's all. In a few years that's perfectly possible. Right now I'm in a transition phase so the endgame will wait.
You obviously put a lot of money into your setups. Good for you. As you can see we have different goals for the moment. :)

2500 € (or 1500 € for the speakers) looks good to me when compared to my Morgane 2 speakers (don't remember their price, a few hundred Euros) and my current 5.1 system (Logitech Z-680) that I bought 20 years ago for 249 €.

But OK, let's put it this way. Music remains the most important thing for me, so the two front speakers are the most important (and the sub if it's needed for music - why not use it if it's there, right?). The other speakers are needed but not as important.
 
But OK, let's put it this way. Music remains the most important thing for me, so the two front speakers are the most important (and the sub if it's needed for music - why not use it if it's there, right?). The other speakers are needed but not as important.
That was where I was going. Maybe get a 2.1 system to start and add more later. KEF 3 Meta even, with a low end svs sub will be a little above your budget but a fantastic foundation.

For the record I never suggested 8361a's. If I could recommend anything it would be the Philharmonic audio BMR monitors.
 
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This is where I'd agree. I'd really love a SVS sub. The entry-level SB-1000 costs 500 € here, and it has excellent reviews. :D

I could spend 1000 € on two musical Hi-Fi speakers, and keep my Logitechs (two rear + center) for the moment. Why not. It won't be worse than today, so...

In that case, the question would become: what are the best Hi-Fi speakers for 1000 €, to be matched with a Denon X3800H and a SVS SB-1000, even for Hi-Fi purposes.
If we're talking floorstanders, then the budget would be 1000 €. If they're smaller speakers, then we need to take into account the price of the stands too.
 
Yes, I'm in France which may influence some choices. :)
  • My room is big, 34 m² (366 sqft). It's about 7m (wide) x 5m (deep), with an unusual shape (no two walls are parallel, which is actually a good thing, right? and some stairs)
  • Viewing distance to my 85" TV is ~3m, so listening distance (diagonal to the main speakers on each side) is ~3,30m.
  • Yes, my whole budget is ~2500 € (more or less). So if the amp costs 1000, that leaves 1500 and so on.
Amp : the Denon X3800H seems nice. It's a little old (3 years) but still up-to-date with the latest A/V standards. And since it's old, it's now at an affordable price. I don't see any alternative, besides the maybe more expensive Marantz or Onkyo. Any thoughts?

Wharfedale : 2x12.3 (752 €) + 2x12.1 (620 €) + 1x12.C (272 €) + 1xSW-12 (613 €) = 2257 €. That's way over my budget (Jeremy, you said under 1000... maybe in the US?). I didn't find any "ready to order" 5.1 packs. Do those not exist?

Elac : same thing, didn't find a 5.1 pack. The DBR 62 are 550 € here (but we need to add the price of the floor stands).

Davis : same thing, no 5.1 pack ? The Ariane 9 are 640 € (pair).

One last thing: I could also keep my Elipson Morgane 2. They're 20+ y.o, but they still sound good. I'd like to change them, but if I do so, I expect a little step-up sound-wise. Otherwise why bother, right? As for the amp, I love my Jadis (the "tube sound" with all those even-rank harmonics is great, makes you forget about the measurements). It's just a little complicated maintenance-wise. Tubes need to be replaced periodically, they can stop working at any moment, etc. I'd love to have some peace of mind, instead of thinking "maybe today the tubes are going to blow up" every time I flip the ON/OFF switch! :facepalm:
Ah (Wharfedales) perhaps these are being discontinued as a new, slightly tweaked, model is being released. I saw the package at online retailer "Richer Sounds" but today that is not available ... still here (uk though) so perhaps worth searching https://www.audioemotion.co.uk/wharfedale-diamond-121-51-av-home-cinema-pack-42590-p.asp
 
FWIW: I have a 5.1 system, recently upgraded to 5.2, consisting of KEF HTS-3001 speakers, a SVS SB-1000 (classic) sub, a KEF HTB2 sub, and a Denon AVC-x3800h. It sounds pretty sublime in my untreated living room at 2.8m listening distance and at 80dBA average SPL. I once swapped the HTS-3001 for objectively much better Genelec 8030c and, to my surprise, in a 2.1 configuration, I could hardly tell them apart (again, in the untreated living room at 2.8m). [I have a separate post on that, if you're interested in the details and some basic measurements.]

However, what has a huge impact on sound quality is room-correction and proper sub integration, and the Denon 3800h shines in that regard: You can use the fantastic and free A1 Acoustix tool from @OCA , which IMO is much better than Audyssey. Some say it's on par or even better than Dirac LBC. You can even use it with the included Audyssey microphone and don't need to have a separate measurement mic (like a UMIK-1). Moreover, the 3800h also gives the option to upgrade to Dirac ART, which is pricey but gets great reviews (I have no experience with that, though).

I also like the Auro 2d upmixer a lot and prefer it over DTS:X and Dolby Sourround. The 3800h offers that too.

Hence, the Denon 3800h seems to an excellent choice. Moreover, if you don't listen too loud and are willing to buy used, something like the HTS-3001 (or similar, e.g. along the lines of what @JeremyFife mentioned) with a good subwoofer (SB-1000, for instance) could be all you need. It would be well within your budget and give you full-range multichannel sound at reasonable SPL. Cheers.
 
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@vsch your setup seems nice, and your separate post shows that you have good ears and that you're on the right path AFAIK. Keep going! :)

The Kef 3001 are old speakers which are not available at all anymore. Not knowing Kef I don't know the current model.
I've tried used. I've found black 5.1 packs, but I need either white or very light wood for my interior. I can keep looking.

The Genelec 8030c are active monitors, right? So how would that work with a 3800? Did you bypass their amp or the 3800's amp?
Here a used pair of 8030c's seems to cost about 700 €. Genelec doesn't seem to have Home Cinema packs though.

Why would you have a second sub? The SVS wasn't enough? :oops:

For my future system, I've always imagined front floorstanders, but satellites could also work if paired with a decend sub like the SVS, even for Hi-Fi purposes.

I know about OCA and I intend to use his german sorcery once I get my new system :cool: I think I'm pretty decided on the 3800, I just need the right speakers to go with it.
 
@vsch your setup seems nice, and your separate post shows that you have good ears and that you're on the right path AFAIK. Keep going! :)

The Kef 3001 are old speakers which are not available at all anymore. Not knowing Kef I don't know the current model.
I've tried used. I've found black 5.1 packs, but I need either white or very light wood for my interior. I can keep looking.

The Genelec 8030c are active monitors, right? So how would that work with a 3800? Did you bypass their amp or the 3800's amp?
Here a used pair of 8030c's seems to cost about 700 €. Genelec doesn't seem to have Home Cinema packs though.

Why would you have a second sub? The SVS wasn't enough? :oops:

For my future system, I've always imagined front floorstanders, but satellites could also work if paired with a decend sub like the SVS, even for Hi-Fi purposes.

I know about OCA and I intend to use his german sorcery once I get my new system :cool: I think I'm pretty decided on the 3800, I just need the right speakers to go with it.

Thanks for the kind words.

Yes, the KEF 3001s are pretty old. I once read that they served as a prototype for some of the technology that went into the Blades -- not sure whether that's true, though. The build- and sound-quality are great in IMHO, and sometimes you can get a used set for ~400 EUR. There is an improved "se" edition that they also offered in white. If you are patient, you may find such a set popping up on a marketplace. (There are also the Kef E305, which are the successor but made out of plastic instead of aluminium. A friend of mine has them. They sound good too, but particularly the center speaker is a simpler 2-way design.)

Yes, the Genelec 8030c are active studio monitors. Objectively, they are on a whole different level than the HTS-3001 and have some of the highest preference scores on spinorama.org. Here is @amirm 's review. I love them in my nearfield 2.1 desk setup. However, in my untreated living room at 2.8m, they don't sound noticeably better than the HTS-3001 after applying @OCA 's room correction and crossing over to the sub(s) at 120 Hz. I think the room reflections and reverberations smear out the advantage of the 8030c in such a less than ideal setting. (Moreover, the more channels you have, the less the quality of the individual speakers matters. If I remember correctly, @Floyd Toole talks about this in his recent AES presentation. This is also the reason why you should assess speaker quality in mono.)

Yes, you can connect the 8030c (or any other active studio monitor) to the Denon 3800h. You just need an RCA -> XLR cable. It worked flawlessly in my case, but you have to be careful of ground loops that could cause humming.

Regarding active monitors: have you looked at Kali IN-8v2 or IN-5, or the even cheaper 2-way JBL 305P MKII? If you can live with the looks, the need to have a power cable to each speaker (and maybe no auto standby), and the SPL limits, they seem to offer great bang for the buck.

Why the second sub? The SB-1000 is more than powerful enough to keep up with the HTS-3001 speakers. I recently added a used HTB2 sub in the opposite corner of the room to deal with a null in the frequency response and to even out the overall bass response. At the same time, I upgraded the room correction from A1 Acoustica to the brand-new A1 Acoustix from @OCA . The system has definitely never sounded better with more "enveloping and immersive" bass, but I don't know whether this is mainly due to the second sub or the improved room correction.
 
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You're welcome :)

Found a full 5.1 Pack of Kef 3005 SE, white, here for 600 € : https://www.leboncoin.fr/ad/photo_audio_video/3062458031
The seller says "good as new". What do you think?
I don't understand the black stands though. That's not what I want and they don't look like the original Kef stands.

Anyway, this is just to prove that for 600 € I could get this pack. Then sell the sub for, say, 200 €, buy a SVS for 500 €, and the Denon 3800 for 1100 €.
Total = 2000 €, well within my budget (I'd have to find the white stands though).

Maybe I can do better. I don't know.
 
You're welcome :)

Found a full 5.1 Pack of Kef 3005 SE, white, here for 600 € : https://www.leboncoin.fr/ad/photo_audio_video/3062458031
The seller says "good as new". What do you think?
I don't understand the black stands though. That's not what I want and they don't look like the original Kef stands.

Anyway, this is just to prove that for 600 € I could get this pack. Then sell the sub for, say, 200 €, buy a SVS for 500 €, and the Denon 3800 for 1100 €.
Total = 2000 €, well within my budget (I'd have to find the white stands though).

Maybe I can do better. I don't know.

The choice for an avr is a very good one for your application.
But in my opinion and experience you'll need bigger speakers for a big room as you have. As suggested earlier I would start with a good sub and 2 speakers.
 
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"Bigger speakers" makes no sense at all to me. Size doesn't matter. Two satellites and a good sub can crush two big floorstanders. It's only a matter of power.
When I said I was imagining two floorstanders, it was mainly for looks in my living room. Sound-wise, I'm confident I could achieve the same with 2 sats + 1 sub.
 
You're welcome :)

Found a full 5.1 Pack of Kef 3005 SE, white, here for 600 € : https://www.leboncoin.fr/ad/photo_audio_video/3062458031
The seller says "good as new". What do you think?
I don't understand the black stands though. That's not what I want and they don't look like the original Kef stands.

Anyway, this is just to prove that for 600 € I could get this pack. Then sell the sub for, say, 200 €, buy a SVS for 500 €, and the Denon 3800 for 1100 €.
Total = 2000 €, well within my budget (I'd have to find the white stands though).

Maybe I can do better. I don't know.
I don't know the speakers, but @vsch does (different version, does it matter?). Probably worth a shot - keep the sub for now, get the denon and see what it sounds like.
If you are underwhelmed, I'm sure you can sell them as a package without losing much, if anything.
Rare case where it's probably worth less if you split them up.

Then enjoy music and movies and think about upgrading the fronts (but you might not need to)
 
It depends on the SPL you expect. I haven't tested their limits as I don't want to damage them, but they perform well for Spotify streaming at an average of 80 dBA at 2.8 meters (crossed over at 110-120 Hz). However, if you expect ear-damaging levels or want to throw parties, you’ll need something more powerful.

If you decide to try them as @JeremyFife suggests, consider giving A1 Acoustix a shot too and -- if possible -- share your feedback. Cheers.
 
I'm not a SPL fanatic, and I don't throw that kind of parties. :D
80-85 dBA seems more than enough for common Hi-Fi listening (no Spotify, local FLAC files).

At that SPL, I expect the sub to perform in a musical way, not as a "boom box" but as a natural extension of the front speakers.
Apparently the SVS is very good at that.

And of course I will try the german magic and share feedback.

Just be advised that this project may take some time. I'm listening to recommendations before buying. Plus something may come up in the used department.
 
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