Recommendations re: Ear Fatigue/Discomfort

[tmtomh]

Would you mind delving further into what a "beaming midrage" and "unpleasantly direct sound" would look like on a spinorama? Or is there another way we would quantify such a thing?



I agree--we can crank things for a number of reasons to our detriment. On my receiver, I never turned it up to 70 dB (or what would be -10 dB depending on which scale I choose). From what I've read, 60-65 dBs shouldn't necessarily be too loud especially if I'm sitting 9-12 feet back from the speakers? Would love your perspective given that.

By "beaming" midrange I mean a speaker with narrow directivity that happens to be toed in a good deal so the speakers are more or less converging in a single point at your head at the listening position. Narrow directivity can, I believe, be determined from some of the graphs (and associated commentary) in Amir's reviews. As for volume level, you are correct - 60-70dB is well below what should cause fatigue for pretty much anyone.

Given the volume you're listening at, I would tend to lean more towards the earlier comments above that talked about the apparently elevated treble of your Jamo speakers.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Yes, Audyssey is definitely nice to have but it didn't help after applying two different times. That would have been quite nice if it did though! And thanks for the suggestion. I found Amir's Wharfedale Diamond 220 review to be quite compelling but those are also discontinued as well. I had been eyeing the Wharfedale Denton 80's as a potential pivot but couldn't find too much in the way of scientific review for them (or the Diamond 12.1s however the reviews for 9, 10, and 11.1s did not seem promising for my situation as I recall).



Are you referencing the Infinity R162s? I'm unfamiliar with them but a quick perusing of Amir's review shows some elevated treble which I think might be my culprit. Also, something with some white flair would better match my vibe (although no ear-inducing discomfort > aesthetics and I'm willing to give the latter up for the former). I'll give Dr. Toole's thoughts a Google.

Appreciate everyone's thoughts! Learning lots and enjoying my first forray into the forum

I am. The 253 and 263 are excellent. I have RC 263 center. This 3 way is best center I have owned. Dialogue is intelligible at low volume. I believe the 4 inch mid range is the difference
The center measured well on this site. It is no Revel but on sale a steal.

 

[escape2]

I am. The 253 and 263 are excellent. I have RC 263 center. This 3 way is best center I have owned. Dialogue is intelligible at low volume. I believe the 4 inch mid range is the difference
The center measured well on this site. It is no Revel but on sale a steal.

Just to be clear, the RC263 is quite a bit different from the R162 that the OP asked about. Amir's reviews do show those differences. While the RC263 does look rather neutral, the same cannot be said about the R162, IMO.

 

[Chromatischism]

Small reflective rooms with loud music cause me fatigue! As someone pointed out in an earlier post, you lose clarity in those reflections.

I used to have this problem until I changed my speakers

Though it depends how much reflection. I have bare walls but carpet and seats. Sound is lovely.

 

[tuga]

1. RSL CG5 (US$700/pair)
Amir never measured this model.
Was measured by Audioholics.

That peak at 990Hz looks (and probably sounds) nasty.
How can they be a no.1 suggestion, or any suggestion at all?

 

[thejsg]

Thought I'd circle back now that I've received my ELAC DBR62s after a couple 4+ hour sessions with them!

Ear fatigue/discomfort is definitely better, but unfortunately still somewhat persistent. I realized that my AVR was set to 8 Ohms default whereas the DBR62s have a nominal impedance of 6 Ohms, so I just changed that and will put them through some tests today.

Any additional thoughts on perhaps how I could continue to make the listening experience easier on the ears? Some thoughts that come to my n00bie mind are:

• AVR is a DENON S750H - in the review, it was mentioned that these speakers might need more oomf from the driver - could this AVR be too underpowered which might cause distortion in the speaker?
  • 140W per channel - although I believe this does not mean each speaker gets 140W based on my previous research...
• Room reflections/modes - I could take a picture to upload if it would help
  • Engineered hardwood floor with two area rugs overlapping
  • Two pieces of furniture: loveseat (seating position) and media console right beneath TV
  • Nothing on the walls
  • Main discomfort occurs in left ear which is parallel the side of the room where I have two openings that lead to a Jack & Jill bathroom setup. Within these spaces there are also mirrored closet doors which could be extremely reflective?

Appreciate any additional encouragement and guidance y'all might give! If this is outside the bounds of this post, please let me know as I'd be happy to make a new one.

 

[escape2]

I realized that my AVR was set to 8 Ohms default whereas the DBR62s have a nominal impedance of 6 Ohms, so I just changed that

I would not touch that setting.

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/impedance-selector-switch-1

• AVR is a DENON S750H - in the review, it was mentioned that these speakers might need more oomf from the driver - could this AVR be too underpowered which might cause distortion in the speaker?

How loud do you listen? What is the volume level on the receiver?

My guess is the issue is caused by your room and lack of room treatment/sound traps. Post up some pics when you get a chance.

 

[Kustomize]

I’ve a denon avr x2400h and speakers that are 4 ohm nominal (Zaph Audio 5.3T). I can confirm changing the rating to 6 or 4 will cause more harm than make it any better. I’ve tried it all. Speaker placement, room acoustics and even your listening position matters a lot. Try your speakers in another room perhaps?

 

[thejsg]

I would not touch that setting.

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/impedance-selector-switch-1

Awesome write-up! Thank you so much for sharing. I will change it back to its default

I never exceed 70 db on my receiver.

I will take pictures and share!

 

[thejsg]

I’ve a denon avr x2400h and speakers that are 4 ohm nominal (Zaph Audio 5.3T). I can confirm changing the rating to 6 or 4 will cause more harm than make it any better. I’ve tried it all. Speaker placement, room acoustics and even your listening position matters a lot. Try your speakers in another room perhaps?

Thank you for your input. I appreciate it and hope your lessons learned didn't do too much harm

Listening to them in another, familiar room is something I definitely need to test.

I've just realized that all the other "listening positions" in my house have occurred using powered speakers and/or carpeted floors. Those are the only two major variables from my perspective.

 

[thejsg]

Post up some pics when you get a chance.

Here are the pics. Space is still "under construction" but it's coming along.

Those openings to the left of the listening position have mirrors for the vanity and the closet door. I tried to spare most potential viewers from the hot mess that are those spaces but am hoping that gives you enough context for your thoughts haha.

 

[sweetchaos]

From Amir's review:

Shows that the ceiling bounce (in dashed red lines) is slightly higher than normal.
2 solutions:
- Either put these speakers in a room with higher ceilings or use an absorber on the ceiling (ex. in-ceiling hanging acoustic panels).
As you can see, that ceiling bounce contributes to frequencies around 2000 hz.

Another thought:
Start to experiment by hanging rugs/drapes over parts of the room and see what difference that makes.
Examples:
1. front of the room, where the speakers are located
2. left of the room
3. right of the room
Your back wall seems to be covered nicely already.

Food for thought...

 

[Chromatischism]

AVR is a DENON S750H - in the review, it was mentioned that these speakers might need more oomf from the driver - could this AVR be too underpowered which might cause distortion in the speaker?

• 140W per channel - although I believe this does not mean each speaker gets 140W based on my previous research...

Not likely but by reducing the "ohm" setting of the AVR you are actually activating power savings and cutting current to reduce heating of the device.

I own both the ELAC DFR52 and Buchardt S400 and neither of these cause ear fatigue, and I'm really sensitive to that. Both are at about the limit that I'm willing to tolerate for longer-term listening. Both are very neutral speakers and sound great. Others would tell you they are "laid back". I don't necessarily agree with that on an absolute level, but relatively compared to some other speakers, sure. That's because there are plenty of speakers out there with peaky treble.

 

[Chromatischism]

Here are the pics. Space is still "under construction" but it's coming along.

Those openings to the left of the listening position have mirrors for the vanity and the closet door. I tried to spare most potential viewers from the hot mess that are those spaces but am hoping that gives you enough context for your thoughts haha.

I had speakers placed similarly before and I thought the bass was great but they sounded too forward and harder to listen to. I would recommend:

1. Not aiming them directly at your seat like that. Do only a mild toe-in such that the speakers cross behind your seats. You could also experiment with crossing them in front of your seat.
2. Pull them out 2 feet from the wall to reduce the intensity of any rear reflections. This will also improve imaging and clarity. This is also important because you want the first reflection to be from the wall and not going through the open door on the left.
3. Use room correction to flatten the bass region.

 

[YSC]

your room is a lot larger than my cabin sized room already, but maybe as other says at that distance the ceiling bounce is affecting you most. I literally sat in 80cm distance from my Genelecs in an equliterial triangle and never got fatigue. one more thing you might try is try with less toe in, generally the off axis response will roll off more highs and make it less fatigue if you found any.

 

[thejsg]

I had speakers placed similarly before and I thought the bass was great but they sounded too forward and harder to listen to. I would recommend:

1. Not aiming them directly at your seat like that. Do only a mild toe-in such that the speakers cross behind your seats. You could also experiment with crossing them in front of your seat.
2. Pull them out 2 feet from the wall to reduce the intensity of any rear reflections. This will also improve imaging and clarity. This is also important because you want the first reflection to be from the wall and not going through the open door on the left.
3. Use room correction to flatten the bass region.

Thank you for the advice! I will experiment with the toe-in and run Audyssey to see if that helps at all. I haven't tried the room EQ since receiving them.

Sadly, I can't pull them out much more, otherwise the Right Book Shelf would receive a decent wallop from the entry door and we wouldn't want that! I could perhaps move the speakers closer inwards toward the TV to see if I could pull it out more without risking the door hitting it.

 

[thejsg]

your room is a lot larger than my cabin sized room already, but maybe as other says at that distance the ceiling bounce is affecting you most. I literally sat in 80cm distance from my Genelecs in an equliterial triangle and never got fatigue. one more thing you might try is try with less toe in, generally the off axis response will roll off more highs and make it less fatigue if you found any.

80cm? Wow. I couldn't imagine being that close! But in order to learn--the closer you are, the less reflections that hit you is that correct?

 

[YSC]

80cm? Wow. I couldn't imagine being that close! But in order to learn--the closer you are, the less reflections that hit you is that correct?

Seems yes. And the sole reason of listening so close is my whole apartment is the size of your listening room

 

[thejsg]

More testing today. Was easier to move my soundbar into the theater room and plug that in. It's a Vizio soundbar and uses optical-in via my motherboard. Tested it for about 30 or so minutes. No issues.

Switch over to my AVR-speaker setup. And within seconds after turning my system on, there's that discomfort/burning sensation in my ear.

When I would turn off the system? Ear discomfort/burning sensation stopped. Rinse and repeat. I tried this several times and every time I had the same thing occur.

So, I'm somewhat at a loss. I don't think it's 100% the room. It does seem to be aggravated by my AVR-speaker setup. And with the new speakers, I think we've ruled out the speakers themselves. Could an AVR cause this? Should I test with an amplifier? I really hate to abandon the HT sound system in lieu of a soundbar, but I'm kinda at my wit's end.

 

[sweetchaos]

I guess the only thing you haven't tried is switching to a different amp, right?

Can you borrow/buy one?
Or bring your speakers to a friend with one, and try it there?

You just have to keep trying things one variable at a time.