• Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Recommendations re: Ear Fatigue/Discomfort

T

thejsg

Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2021
Messages
20
Likes
5
Location
DFW, TX
Happy New Year, folks!

New to home theater and my first roadblock after researching, set-up, and testing came incredibly quickly with an experience of ear fatigue/discomfort!

I'm coming from Jamo S 803s and a complimentary C 83 paired with a PB-2000 driven by a Denon S750H. Although I'm fairly certain with less rigorous testing that my room is playing the part of culpable culprit, I was able to confirm by recently switching out the Jamos with the only other speakers on hand (unfortunately powered KRK RP5G3 monitors--would have preferred a passive secondary set): that the Jamos are definitely causing an issue. Although with a healthy dose of tinnitus and three sets of tubes as a kiddo, I'm sure my anatomy isn't helping the matter whatsoever.

Context out of the way, I've recently stumbled upon this AMAZING forum in hopes of finding new bookshelves that will help me put ear fatigue in the rear-view mirror. After spending several hours enjoying @amirm's reviews and @edechamps's wonderful Loudspeaker Explorer, I've compared several speaker's spinoramas and have come up with three options in no particular order: RSL CG5, ELAC DBR62, or KEF Q150 (yes, I know only Q100 and Q350 have been reviewed thus far technically).

I'm banking on what I believe to be some extreme sensitivity in the treble range as the reason for my issue (though from what I've read, so do lots of other folks).

So, I'm asking for perhaps a little more input from this wonderful community as to which of the above speakers might be a solution to my ear-fatiguing problem (other options are always welcomed too!). I would also benefit from any anecdotal stories shared of folks who had similar circumstances where switching out your speakers led to a much more enjoyable and less uncomfortable auditory experience! I have much to learn being new to this space.

Thanks in advance for your guidance and input. I appreciate it!
 
Hi, welcome to ASR!

Sell those Jamos immediately! :eek:
See Erin's review of larger towers, Jamo S807:
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/jamo_s807/
1609739666005.png
That is NOT what a speaker spinorama should look like!

Here's the in-room-response:
1609739687528.png
This tells us that the speaker is brighter than the sun! *sorry for the pun*
I mean it's a non-neutral speaker, with frequencies above 2k that will sound bright to your ears.

Erin's overall conclusion was: "Avoid this speaker at all costs" Haha.

Regarding your picks:
1. RSL CG5 (US$700/pair)
Amir never measured this model.
Was measured by Audioholics.
1609740362028.png
This doesnt look that great....you can see that the mid-bass region is somewhat elevated in comparison to the rest of the frequency range, and this does steer the sound away from being a completely neutral speaker. This speaker will be warmer sound overall. Which will make it easy to listen to, but not totally accurate.

2. Elac DBR62 (US$600/pair)
Amir measured this model and it's highly recommended.
Estimated in-room-response was:
1609740012317.png
3. Kef Q150 (US$300/pair)
This is a smaller woofer than Amir's measured Kef Q350.
So Q150 will have less deep frequency extension and higher distortion than Q350, simply due to the smaller woofer.
Here's in-room-response:
1609740231528.png
So it will be neutral*ish* out of the box. But Amir's review wasn't a recommendation but a 'questionable-performing speaker award'.

Of course, Elac BDR62 is a winner.
 
Based on those preliminary selections, I take it your budget is under $600 US?

If that is the case there might not be a better passive speaker than the ELAC DBR62. Or at least we haven't found it yet.
 
@sweetchaos Thanks for weighing-in! And yes... hard to keep track of all the spinoramas I've been feasting on lately haha! Lots of really good resources now that I know what to look for (the scientific data moreso than rave YouTubers or Reddit posts).

This speaker will be warmer sound overall. Which will make it easy to listen to, but not totally accurate.
Click to expand...
Would you confirm that darker > neutral > bright effectively means either darker or neutral speakers might better help with my current ear-fatigue situation?

So Q150 will have less deep frequency extension and higher distortion than Q350, simply due to the smaller woofer.
Click to expand...
As I continue to learn, when comparing speakers of the same "family" such as these Kefs, are woofer sizes routinely negatively correlated to things such as distortion? That'd be helpful to know when there's reviews of one speaker from a "family" set.

@Chromatischism Well, my budget started out around $460 and then I jumped on the Jamo S 803s last minute due to a sell during Black Friday of course. But clearly, I've learned that higher pricetags do not necessarily mean better speakers (maybe bigger, louder, "aesthetically pleasing", etc.) and sometimes more money gets you a speaker that plays better for ears and rooms. I mean I had hoped to score a SB12-NSD refresh during this last Black Friday but instead SVS did a sell on their SB/PB-2000 lines... and well, we see where that took me, didn't we? Haha.
 
Have you tried EQ'ing the Jamos to see if the treble response is causing you issues?

Also, in my experience excess sidewall reflective energy arriving too early can make dialogue and vocals harder to hear, and I feel a sensation of my ears trying to compensate and hear through the reflections, similar to squinting when reading something slightly blurry. I find this can cause ear fatigue over the course of a movie or listening session. You can modulate the reflective energy with toe-in. In my narrow room (11.5ft wide) all speakers sound best when crossed in front of me.
 
@theyellowspecial I certainly have! I played around in the upper frequencies dialing them down by 3dB all the way to 9dB but there's just no taming these Jamos whatsoever. I could tell that it did make a little difference; however, it only delayed the unfortunate fatigue/discomfort by perhaps another 15-30 minutes. To note, I did have them toe'd-in. Out of curiosity, what is your set-up and about how far away from your sidewalls did you end up placing your speakers?

My gameplan right now is to try out some better, more neutral/less bright speakers as I believe it will certainly help. But I do think room treatment might be the next step. It was only this morning that I realized all my previous "listening positions" were in carpeted rooms whereas my new HT space is in a room with engineered hardwood flooring which even with rug treatment might require a bit more attention from me.
 
thejsg said:
Would you confirm that darker > neutral > bright effectively means either darker or neutral speakers might better help with my current ear-fatigue situation?
Click to expand...
Well, there's different types of sound colorations: warm (boosted bass), bright (boosted treble), v-shaped (boosted bass and treble), etc.
So while some people like these types of colorations, we know (from research) that *most* people prefer "neutral" speakers.

I have both bright (JBL 305P MKII) and neutral (Genelec 8040B) speakers. While JBL speakers sound great at first, the *brightness* hits you after a period of time. After applying PEQ filters (to make them more neutral) on them, they became very enjoyable to listen to.
Genelec are a pleasure to listen to, at any volume and for any period of time. I don't get fatigued (which can happen with bright speakers) or overwhelmed by the bass (which can happen with warm speakers) with Genelecs.

I think the solution for you is to get a more neutral speaker, to avoid any intentional sound colorations.

Elac DBR62 is a neutral speaker, that is highly recommended by Amir.
 
@sweetchaos Thanks again for a well-written reply! Y'all are pretty awesome on this forum; glad I found my way here (since you like puns haha).

Didn't know that warm speakers can also have an overwhelming effect. Therefore, I think I will take the collective advice and go for the ELAC DBR62s and see what my ears think about neutral sound :)

Now, I wait for them to get back in stock. Such was 2020 and seems to be 2021!
 
I'm surprised Audyssey in your receiver didn't "neutralize" your Jamos, although I suppose it can't do miracles.

Another warmer sounding speaker worth considering is Wharfedale Diamond 225, alas it's now discontinued so it may be harder to find. Musicdirect has an open box.
 
Infinity bookshelves often on sale and are neutral. Dr. Toole liked them. I just checked and not on sale now. Go on sale all the time.
 
escape2 said:
I'm surprised Audyssey in your receiver didn't "neutralize" your Jamos
Click to expand...

I wonder the same, do we know if the OP actually ran it? I know I neglected it for several years with an older Denon AVR, then after I finally ran it it actually made a big (positive) difference.
 
escape2 said:
I'm surprised Audyssey in your receiver didn't "neutralize" your Jamos, although I suppose it can't do miracles.

Another warmer sounding speaker worth considering is Wharfedale Diamond 225, alas it's now discontinued so it may be harder to find. Musicdirect has an open box.
Click to expand...

gvl said:
I wonder the same, do we know if the OP actually ran it? I know I neglected it for several years with an older Denon AVR, then after I finally ran it it actually made a big (positive) difference.
Click to expand...

Yes, Audyssey is definitely nice to have but it didn't help after applying two different times. That would have been quite nice if it did though! And thanks for the suggestion. I found Amir's Wharfedale Diamond 220 review to be quite compelling but those are also discontinued as well. I had been eyeing the Wharfedale Denton 80's as a potential pivot but couldn't find too much in the way of scientific review for them (or the Diamond 12.1s however the reviews for 9, 10, and 11.1s did not seem promising for my situation as I recall).

Alice of Old Vincennes said:
Infinity bookshelves often on sale and are neutral. Dr. Toole liked them. I just checked and not on sale now. Go on sale all the time.
Click to expand...

Are you referencing the Infinity R162s? I'm unfamiliar with them but a quick perusing of Amir's review shows some elevated treble which I think might be my culprit. Also, something with some white flair would better match my vibe (although no ear-inducing discomfort > aesthetics and I'm willing to give the latter up for the former). I'll give Dr. Toole's thoughts a Google.

Appreciate everyone's thoughts! Learning lots and enjoying my first forray into the forum :)
 
gvl said:
I wonder the same, do we know if the OP actually ran it? I know I neglected it for several years with an older Denon AVR, then after I finally ran it it actually made a big (positive) difference.
Click to expand...
If a speaker has poor directivity curve (I am not referring to wide vs narrow) then even dsp cannot fix it as per my understanding.
 
It's hard to tell what the issue could be - certainly boosted treble could be a tinnitus trigger. On the other hand, so could beaming midrange, as we are most sensitive to midrange sounds and even if our tinnitus is in the higher frequencies, discomfort/sensitivity can easily still be triggered by unpleasantly direct sound in the 2-4kHz (approx) range.

Finally, at the risk of stating something overly simple, don't underestimate the role of sheer volume in producing ear fatigue. There's a bit of conventional wisdom out there that says good/pleasing sound makes us want to turn the volume up since it's so nice-sounding. However, I have actually found the opposite to be true: if there's something wrong with the sound, especially if it's treble-boosted and therefore relatively bass-shy. I often find myself turning it up in order to try to get that bass impact. That, in turn, can elevate the overall volume to a level that creates fatigue after a while - and in particular it turns the treble way up since it was already elevated relative to the other frequencies.

Sometimes the simplest and most effective cure for fatigue is simply to recalibrate your ears for slightly lower volume: turn off the system for the day/night, go to sleep, and start again the next day at somewhat lower volume.
 
Last edited:
tmtomh said:
It's hard to tell what the issue could be - certainly boosted treble could be a tinnitus trigger. On the other hand, so could beaming midrange, as we are most sensitive to midrange sounds and even if our tinnitus is in the higher frequencies, discomfort/sensitivity can easily still be triggered by unpleasantly direct sound in the 2-4kHz (approx) range.
Click to expand...

Would you mind delving further into what a "beaming midrage" and "unpleasantly direct sound" would look like on a spinorama? Or is there another way we would quantify such a thing?

tmtomh said:
Finally, at the risk of stating something overly simple, don't underestimate the role of sheer volume in producing ear fatigue. There's a bit of conventional wisdom out there that says good/pleasing sound makes us want to turn the volume up since it's so nice-sounding. However, I have actually found the opposite to be true: if there's something wrong with the sound, especially if it's treble-boosted and therefore relatively bass-shy. I often find myself turning it up in order to try to get that bass impact. That, in turn, can elevate the overall volume to a level that creates fatigue after a while - and in particular it turns the treble way up since it was already elevated relative to the other frequencies.

Sometimes the simplest and most effective cure for fatigue is simply to recalibrate your ears for slightly lower volume: turn off the system for the day/night, go to sleep, and start again the next day at somewhat lower volume.
Click to expand...

I agree--we can crank things for a number of reasons to our detriment. On my receiver, I never turned it up to 70 dB (or what would be -10 dB depending on which scale I choose). From what I've read, 60-65 dBs shouldn't necessarily be too loud especially if I'm sitting 9-12 feet back from the speakers? Would love your perspective given that.
 
Small reflective rooms with loud music cause me fatigue! As someone pointed out in an earlier post, you lose clarity in those reflections.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

G
ELC-0 beta is live: an Equal Loudness Contour plugin for mixing/listening safely at low volumes
Replies
9
Views
1K
popej
popej
4
Sparkos OP Amps Causing Fatigue
Replies
14
Views
2K
Antiaudiophile
A
G
I need help with choosing right floor standing speakers
Replies
5
Views
1K
Mr. Reeee
Mr. Reeee
J
Recommend Some Non-Fatiguing Headphones with Great Sound Stage and Detail
Replies
2
Views
994
DVDdoug
DVDdoug
T
KEF Q7 meta as An upgrade to the Focal Chorus 726
Replies
15
Views
2K
GroeneLeeuw
G
Back
Top Bottom