Recommendations for Music Production PC

[drumphil]

You can still get sudden failures with SSD, but you can still get them with HDD too.

Yep.

Does any vendor actually sell a pc with Windows 10 or 11 LTSC installed, or does everyone just buy it separately and install it over the version of Windows that ships (and presumably forces you to set up a Microsoft account)?

No for windows 10. No idead about things like 11 LTSC. You can install 11 with an installer modified using RUFUS, or with a console command during installation, that bypasses the requirement create or log into a microsoft account.

For those who use an SSD for the system drive (OS + applications), would you use an SSD for samples as well?

From a performance point of view, a modern SSD can move 4 gigabytes a second over a PCIE 3.0 NVME slot, which is what I believe your system has. Everything can absolutely live on one drive. If you are looking at it from a data security point of view, backup is most important. And with fast SSD's, backing everything up can be a lot faster and more convenient.

You could have a second SSD for samples, but I don't really see what the point would be to doing that. It just makes things more complicated.

While things can be done with RAID on windows systems to provide some redundancy, I'm not sure that things like intel chipset RAID would work with NVME drives, and such configurations are generally not recommended if you wouldn't describe youself as a technical expert in such things. Especially using windows. There are some tricks that make softraid OS drives a thing in linux land (softraid systems being able to use all storage types, including NVME drives that aren't connected to the chipset) that aren't possible with windows systems.

That's why I have a linux based file server with ZFS based RAID with NVME drives, but no such system in my Windows desktop machine, which backups to the file server.

I believe NVME RAID at a level you can install windows on is a thing with some newer systems/cpu's/chipsets, but I haven't played with that.

EDIT: OK, depending on the capabilities exposed in the BIOS, it is possible to create a NVME RAID configuration that you can install windows on, in older systems than I originally thought possible.

But if you're not doing this with your existing HDD's, I don't see why you'd bother doing it with SSD's. I also seem to remember something about TRIM not working properly with SSD's in such an arrangement with RAID 1 (mirrored) drives.

 

[kemmler3D]

For those who use an SSD for the system drive (OS + applications), would you use an SSD for samples as well?

I do (not that I do a ton of production these days) but SSDs are pretty cheap.

This might be a spicy thing to say but the only way you have enough samples that SSDs are not relatively worth the cost is if you're pirating your sample packs or you're hoarding a bunch of cheap, crappy, redundant sounds for no reason. Good ROMplers cost as much as an SSD and more than one will fit on a drive.

 

[drumphil]

I do (not that I do a ton of production these days) but SSDs are pretty cheap.

This might be a spicy thing to say but the only way you have enough samples that SSDs are not relatively worth the cost is if you're pirating your sample packs or you're hoarding a bunch of cheap, crappy, redundant sounds for no reason. Good ROMplers cost as much as an SSD and more than one will fit on a drive.

I should have added, that simply not having enough space is one legitimate reason to have a second drive, and SSD's get significantly more expensive per TB once you go above 4TB in a single drive.

 

[ejr]

Considering this config (offered by HP) - Any comments or suggestions? Maybe only one (larger) SSD for OS, apps, and samples? I'm still thinking about my old systems when PCs and HDDs were much slower. Multiple drives just meant quicker access and better performance.

​ Hello, I customized this PC on HP.com and wanted to share it with you. View the product details below. View the product details below. ​ HP Z2 G9 Tower Workstation - Customizable Product #: 4N3U9AV_MB MSRP* $3534.00 $1767.00 Primary Specs Operating system Windows 11 Pro - HP recommends Windows 11 Pro for business Base HP Z2 Tower G9 Workstation - 350 W Processor Intel® Core™ i7-14700 Processor vPro® Enterprise (2.1 GHz, up to 5.4 GHz w/Boost, 33 MB cache, 20 core, 65W) + Intel® UHD Graphics 770 Memory 32 GB (1 x 32 GB) DDR5-4800 UDIMM Memory Internal OS load storage options Operating System Load to M.2 Internal M.2 storage 256 GB PCIe 4x4 2280 Value M.2 SSD Internal storage 2 TB 7200 RPM SATA 3.5" HDD Graphics card NVIDIA® T400 (4 GB GDDR6, 3 x Mini DisplayPort) Graphics Additional Specs ENERGY STAR ENERGY STAR Qualified Configuration 2nd internal M.2 storage 256 GB PCIe 4x4 2280 Value M.2 2nd SSD Settings High Performance Mode Default Wireless LAN Intel® Wi-Fi 6 AX211 + Bluetooth® 5.2 Flexible port options DisplayPort Port (v2) Media reader HP SD Card Reader Optical drive 9.5mm SuperMulti DVDRW Optical Disc Drive Keyboard HP 125 Black Wired Keyboard Mouse HP Wired 320M Mouse Power supply C13 1.83m Sticker Conventional Desktop Power Cord US Graphics connectors No Adapters Needed Technical AV OS Localization Warranty Three-year (3/3/3) limited warranty Packaging Single Unit (Tower) Z2 Packaging Country kit Country Kit Label processor Intel Core i7 vPro Enterprise Raptor Lake Label ShipDate ShipDate

 

[drumphil]

Maybe only one (larger) SSD for OS, apps, and samples?

Given the computer specs you are looking at, just put a good SSD in it. In the age of this level of processing power, mechanincal storage devices no longer make any sense.

Speed? A modern nvme drive in a PCIE 4.0 slot can move around EIGHT GIGABYTES of data per second. High performance HDD's can achieve around 250 megabytes per second, and that's only if they are performing long linear read/write operations. SSD's are even faster again in relative performance in random IO operations.

How many GB/TB of stuff needs to fit on the drive, if you just migrate what you've got stored now?

Also, you've really got to watch the packages from companies like HP.

It has 32 GB of ram, but only one RAM stick. Because of the dual channel memory controllers that the CPU uses, using only one RAM stick only gives you half the full potential memory bandwidth. So you if you want 32 GB of ram, you want it to be two 16GB sticks, or two 32GB sticks if you want 64GB.

The NVIDIA TT400 GPU has decent performance for a DAW system, but it has a tiny, potentially annoying high RPM fan. For an ultra quiet system, I'd probably ditch the discrete GPU, and just use the on board graphics, or get a larger graphics card that can cool itself nearly silently with larger fans. Larger gaming GPU's, with their larger coolers, can be extremely quiet when doing tasks that don't put much load on the GPU, like DAW work.

So, overall, what I'd change is you want two RAM sticks, not one, and you want a bigger SSD, not a small SSD and a larger HDD. It's worth thinking about the GPU noise issue too.

Depending on what HP charge for a larger SSD, you may find it's cheaper to get a bigger, faster SSD from somwhere else, and install it yourself.

 

[kemmler3D]

Considering this config (offered by HP) - Any comments or suggestions? Maybe only one (larger) SSD for OS, apps, and samples? I'm still thinking about my old systems when PCs and HDDs were much slower. Multiple drives just meant quicker access and better performance.

​ Hello, I customized this PC on HP.com and wanted to share it with you. View the product details below. View the product details below. ​ HP Z2 G9 Tower Workstation - Customizable Product #: 4N3U9AV_MB MSRP* $3534.00 $1767.00 Primary Specs Operating system Windows 11 Pro - HP recommends Windows 11 Pro for business Base HP Z2 Tower G9 Workstation - 350 W Processor Intel® Core™ i7-14700 Processor vPro® Enterprise (2.1 GHz, up to 5.4 GHz w/Boost, 33 MB cache, 20 core, 65W) + Intel® UHD Graphics 770 Memory 32 GB (1 x 32 GB) DDR5-4800 UDIMM Memory Internal OS load storage options Operating System Load to M.2 Internal M.2 storage 256 GB PCIe 4x4 2280 Value M.2 SSD Internal storage 2 TB 7200 RPM SATA 3.5" HDD Graphics card NVIDIA® T400 (4 GB GDDR6, 3 x Mini DisplayPort) Graphics Additional Specs ENERGY STAR ENERGY STAR Qualified Configuration 2nd internal M.2 storage 256 GB PCIe 4x4 2280 Value M.2 2nd SSD Settings High Performance Mode Default Wireless LAN Intel® Wi-Fi 6 AX211 + Bluetooth® 5.2 Flexible port options DisplayPort Port (v2) Media reader HP SD Card Reader Optical drive 9.5mm SuperMulti DVDRW Optical Disc Drive Keyboard HP 125 Black Wired Keyboard Mouse HP Wired 320M Mouse Power supply C13 1.83m Sticker Conventional Desktop Power Cord US Graphics connectors No Adapters Needed Technical AV OS Localization Warranty Three-year (3/3/3) limited warranty Packaging Single Unit (Tower) Z2 Packaging Country kit Country Kit Label processor Intel Core i7 vPro Enterprise Raptor Lake Label ShipDate ShipDate

Agree with @drumphill here. I also think 256gb SSD is too small and you should splash out for 1-2TB if you can, but that may be cheaper aftermarket. Even if just used for OS and software 256gb tends to fill up fast IME. The power supply is also too small if you want to put a more robust GPU in there.

 

[ejr]

Thanks. That makes sense.

 

[drumphil]

The power supply is also too small if you want to put a more robust GPU in there.

I missed that too.


If you want to go for a more powerful GPU, then I'd suggest getting the bigger PSU option, so that you can run a full size card that is likely to silent at low load, which will be almost all of the time when doing DAW stuff. The NVIDIA T400, and other small form factor cards aren't a bad thing, and can be quite useful in small form factor case, but they can be annoying with their little fans that never turn off. Full size cards tend to shut their fans off at idle, and are likely to stay like that under typical DAW work loads.

The integrated intel UHD 770 GPU that is built into the CPU is non terrible. I'd rather just use that, than put a small GPU with a high RPM fan in a system used for audio production, or go all the way to a full size card. Nvidia T400 with small high RPM fan shown below.

 

[drumphil]

but that may be cheaper aftermarket.

Just had a look at the upgrade options pricing for that system on the HP website, $610 US for a 1TB SSD!



You can get an 8TB SSD for that sort of money.

 

[kemmler3D]

Just had a look at the upgrade options pricing for that system on the HP website, $610 US for a 1TB SSD!



You can get an 8TB SSD for that sort of money.

Hmm, yeah I'd buy this rig with the smallest HDD offered and then grab a 2TB or two on the side.

 

[ejr]

Makes sense (sort of).

If I buy one without a system drive, I'd have no way to get online and download Windows 11 LTSC. But, if I do, is there a way to avoid creating a Microsoft account when I start the version of Windows that comes with the new machine for the first time? (I probably already have an account, from when I bought the PC that I am on now, though I never use it. Not sure if it is still valid.)

FWIW - Despite all the pros and cons raised by all the people I have dealt with for more than three decades (many of them pros, and my needs being relatively modest) the best strategy for me has been to

(1) keep things as local as possible, relying as little as possible on things that require Internet access (such as One Drive, Google Drive, etc.) and work off-line as much as is practical.

(2) Don't use MS accounts, or apps that require authorization through dongels and the like,

(3) Debloat as much as possible,

(4) Don't update unless I am having a specific issue that require it,

(5) Back up the OS and system drive with a mirror copy stored on an external disc or memory stick,

(6) Keep data files on separate drives and back them up after every session.

This has saved me so many headaches, especially when I was a developer and dealing with my clients' data as well as my own. I'm really a better-safe-than-sorry kind of guy, though I admit it's easy for me to be that way because the stuff I do is relatively simple. I'd like to continue that approach as I move to LTSC territory. I'll probably put it on the new machine first, to see how it goes, then upgrade this one when it gets close to the Win 10 phase-out. Any other suggestions before then are welcome. Thanks.

 

[drumphil]

If I buy one without a system drive, I'd have no way to get online and download Windows 11 LTSC. But, if I do, is there a way to avoid creating a Microsoft account when I start the version of Windows that comes with the new machine for the first time? (I probably already have an account, from when I bought the PC that I am on now, though I never use it. Not sure if it is still valid.)

If you're getting the HP, the 256GB SSD comes with it anyway. Even if you remove it from the options list, you don't get any money back for it.

As for installing without a microsoft account, you can bypass that requirement by getting to the part of the process where it asks you to connect to the internet, and you say you don't have internet, and then typing shift+F10 to open the console, and enter the command start ms-cxh:localonly

This will let you proceed, and make a normal local user account.

Or you can use a tool like RUFUS, to make a Win 11 USB installer with the MS account requirements removed.

Rufus - Create bootable USB drives the easy way

Rufus: Create bootable USB drives the easy way

rufus.ie

(6) Keep data files on separate drives and back them up after every session.

There is nothing to stop you having data on multiple devices, but as far as I can tell, all that is doing is adding complexity, that doesn't really solve any problem that I'm aware of. Certainly not performance problems, doing what you're doing with a single modern SSD. There wouldn't be any performance problems.

I guess a mirrored drive with two SSD's would protect against sudden data failure, but that can happen with any disk, and you're not protecting against it now.

 

[dasdoing]

From what I can gather without having read everything, the most important point might be missing: how well your computer performs largely depends on the total number of tracks and plugin instances you're using, and how much processing power each of those demands.

If your PC starts struggling with a big project, there are ways to work around it. For example, you can 'bounce' individual tracks once they're mostly done. Some digital audio workstations (DAWs) like Reaper even have special features to make this easier.

My best advice to start is to try running a full project on your current computer before you buy any upgrades. See how much it can handle. It might surprise you and be enough, though it's more likely you'll eventually need an upgrade. Ultimately, it all comes down to your specific needs.

 

[ejr]

If you're getting the HP, the 256GB SSD comes with it anyway. Even if you remove it from the options list, you don't get any money back for it.

As for installing without a microsoft account, you can bypass that requirement by getting to the part of the process where it asks you to connect to the internet, and you say you don't have internet, and then typing shift+F10 to open the console, and enter the command start ms-cxh:localonly

This will let you proceed, and make a normal local user account.

Ah. Good idea.

Or you can use a tool like RUFUS, to make a Win 11 USB installer with the MS account requirements removed.

Rufus - Create bootable USB drives the easy way

Rufus: Create bootable USB drives the easy way

rufus.ie

There is nothing to stop you having data on multiple devices, but as far as I can tell, all that is doing is adding complexity, that doesn't really solve any problem that I'm aware of. Certainly not performance problems, doing what you're doing with a single modern SSD. There wouldn't be any performance problems.

I guess a mirrored drive with two SSD's would protect against sudden data failure, but that can happen with any disk, and you're not protecting against it now.

I think you are misunderstanding me. I was assuming that I would need three drives primarily because that was what my old system (built 25 years ago) had and I am used to it. One was for the OS + apps. The second was for sample libraries. The third was for project files. (These were pro-built machines used by the film industry for music that would end up on movie soundtracks and it was the way to get the best performance at the time.)

The other reason to have all the data files on a separate drive today (in my case the Cakewalk and Musescore files) is that it makes it easier to migrate my work to another machine if need to do so. Or to pass it on to a pro orchestrator and/or musical director if the project gets picked up.

 

[ejr]

From what I can gather without having read everything, the most important point might be missing: how well your computer performs largely depends on the total number of tracks and plugin instances you're using, and how much processing power each of those demands.

If your PC starts struggling with a big project, there are ways to work around it. For example, you can 'bounce' individual tracks once they're mostly done. Some digital audio workstations (DAWs) like Reaper even have special features to make this easier.

My best advice to start is to try running a full project on your current computer before you buy any upgrades. See how much it can handle. It might surprise you and be enough, though it's more likely you'll eventually need an upgrade. Ultimately, it all comes down to your specific needs.

Total number of tracks is expected to be minimal by today's standards. No FX. Just MIDI files + AI generated vocals. I am only the composer, providing a demo for a score that will be played live in a theater. I am taking a stab at rudimentaty orchestation, to give it a bit of context and demo the flavor I'm after, because it's a bit nicer than just a piano score and it's relatively easy to do these days.

 

[dasdoing]

Total number of tracks is expected to be minimal by today's standards. No FX. Just MIDI files + AI generated vocals. I am only the composer, providing a demo for a score that will be played live in a theater. I am taking a stab at rudimentaty orchestation, to give it a bit of context and demo the flavor I'm after, because it's a bit nicer than just a piano score and it's relatively easy to do these days.

That sounds like your old PC should be totally fine, actually.
But in your initial post, you said that you would use MIDI with samplers. That would at least require a good hard disc (depending though)....and btw...you should have an SSD at this point anyway. The feel of a PC is so much better with an SSD.

 

[Timcognito]

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[drumphil]

Ah. Good idea.

I think you are misunderstanding me. I was assuming that I would need three drives primarily because that was what my old system (built 25 years ago) had and I am used to it. One was for the OS + apps. The second was for sample libraries. The third was for project files. (These were pro-built machines used by the film industry for music that would end up on movie soundtracks and it was the way to get the best performance at the time.)

The other reason to have all the data files on a separate drive today (in my case the Cakewalk and Musescore files) is that it makes it easier to migrate my work to another machine if need to do so. Or to pass it on to a pro orchestrator and/or musical director if the project gets picked up.

If you really want multiple drives, just get two SSD's, and put your projects and sample banks on the second one. That system has more than one SSD slot.

But as I said earlier, just sticking a SSD and some more ram in your existing system would give you pretty decent performance for what you're doing.

Step one towards modern PC performance, some more RAM and SSD in your current computer.

Step two if you find the CPU is still limiting you, a new computer that as well as a much faster CPU, also has more RAM and SSD.

In either scenario, using one, two or even three SSD's is up to you, but I think we've laid out fairly clearly what multiple drives will and wont achieve.

If you really want to keep the existing spinning HDD's, you could use them as internal backup for the SSD's.

 

[ejr]

That sounds like your old PC should be totally fine, actually.
But in your initial post, you said that you would use MIDI with samplers. That would at least require a good hard disc (depending though)....and btw...you should have an SSD at this point anyway. The feel of a PC is so much better with an SSD.

Old pc bit the dust, after 25 years, which is why I'm looking for a replacement.

 

[ejr]

I read somewhere that you get better performance with a separate video card, rather than the onboard one, which is why I included it. I had a good one in my old machine, because I also used it for video editing. Just wondering if it's worth it. How much of a performance boost does it give if a separate card is handling the video. (The only video that the new machine will be displaying is the UI for Cakewalk and Musescore.) Thanks.