Recommendations for Music Production PC

[ejr]

Okay, it's been a long time since I have done this. The last PC that I used for music composition and orchestrating was built about 25 years ago (though it was updated several times since then). It had so many things wrong with it. When the last system drive irreparably crashed and I found that it was no longer possible to get the versions of a lot of the software I was using reauthorized (all of the software basically obsolete), I saved the data drive and back up drive (which contained all my project files) and finally ditched the thing.

Now I am starting almost from scratch again. I am considering two options. The first is to convert my other computer for my music (right now, I'm using it for everything else). It's a Dell Precision 3630 Tower running Windows 10 Professional 64bit with an Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-9500 CPU @ 3.00GHz and 8192MB of RAM. It has three HDD. Two are conventional SATA drives (one for OS and programs, the other for DATA) and one hybrid drive that I never use. I would add RAM, obviously and use the hybrid drive for samples. I also need a new audio interface, because the one I used on my old music PC doesn't have drivers for newer operating systems (I'm considering the SSL 2 Plus MKII USB). I intend to keep using Windows 10. This machine is never going to be online anymore. It will be stricktly used for one purpose only -- taking the music I wrote before I retired, re-orchestrating it using currently available sample libraries, adding AI vocal tracks using Synthesizer V, and producing audio demos. This will be done in the current version of Cakewalk (since the original versions are all in Cakewalk Sonor files). Finally, I will export them to MIDI files and then convert to a more detailed score in MuseScore 4). This is a musical theater project demo. It doesn't have to be a polished performance. The audio tracks are meant to be a guide for singers and musicians to aid in rehearsing a live demo. The score will be a starting point for a pro orchestrator.

So, the bottom line is, I need some input from pros who have done this kind of thing before and worked with more recent hardware than I had available at the time I started this. The alternative would be to buy a new music production PC and do it on that machine, while keeping this one for everything else. That was my original plan. The reason I am considering this alternative is because, frankly, I am dreading being forced to upgrade to Windows 11. I never upgraded this machine because of all the potential problems with it (not the least of which are security and privacy concerns). And I don't like a lot of what I have been reading about MS not allowing the user to override some of the most objectional features. Lately, my thinking is that, if this machine would do for my music, I'd be better off buying a UNIX system for my other PC. I don't think the full suite of MS Office that I am running locally (not on the cloud) is substantially different from LibreOffice and I am looking for Linux versions of my other apps, before deciding what I can live with and what I can live without.

No wrong answers here. I'm just looking for opinions from people who have worked with more recent music production software than I have and understand what I am trying to do. Thanks.

 

[nerdstrike]

I have one experience to relate. Trying to run Ableton 11 on a retired Intel Macbook from around 2016. It ran out of CPU with the demo project, and was extremely easy to max out with even a couple of tracks using virtual instrument modules. I gave up on that. The 9th gen i5 you've got has 3x the cores, so it'd hopefully be fine under similar circumstances. Synthesizer V looks vague on processing requirements.

Back-ups for all that labour you'll put in. Separate essay for picking the right solution there.

You can have a trial run at linux with Windows Subsystem for Linux without needing to copy data over. Old-school live-CD bootable USB is another way to have a temporary trial experience.

 

[fieldcar]

Just get more ram and change over to windows 10 LTSC (see video below). If you can't get a license and end up on windows 11, run the debloat tool by chris titus tech to trim the fat of windows 11.

By today's standards, the i5-9500 is a bit dated, but if you render demanding synths to a dry PCM track, your 9500 can handle it without any issues. Basic PCM tracks with a few effects basically consume almost no CPU usage. My DAW (FL studio) has a built in feature for exporting stems. You'll have to figure out if your DAW has this.

The only reason to upgrade the 9500 is if you're running a ton of synths and you get a bunch of buffer underruns (crackling). Though, you may just be able to increase your buffer and add a bit of latency if you aren't trying to record live instrumentation alongside project playback.

Render tracks (FL Studio):

Windows 10 LTSC:

 

[ejr]

Thanks. That is very helpful information. The first time I heard about LTSC.

I may have to keep this pc for non-musical stuff, though, if I can't get drivers for my printers. I have been using Windows 10, debloated with Sledgehammer (to block upgrades) and it's never been a problem. Though I don't know what will happen when MS tries to force us all to upgrade to Windows 11.

If I have to get another machine for music, I may just disable Internet access after I have downloaded the software (assuming that is possible) ... but, yeah, putting Win 10 LTC might be a better approach. Then, I could at least keep it on my wireless LAN, in case I had to move files between the machines and didn't want to resort to memory sticks.

I'm thinking of at least 16GB of RAM (if not 32). What's the minimum for a processor? I want to stay with an intel chip, but avoid the ones that have been a problem. From what I have read so far, it seems like the ones ending in K are all right. How many cores do I need? (If it's any guide, on my old system, I had Cakewalk Sonar, Kontakt and a lot of Kontakt sample libraries. Mostly orchestral stuff. And, as you say, I don't know what to expect from SynthV.)

Also, I hear bad things about SSD drives. Is it possible to use normal SATA drives with platters, if they're fast enough? I'd feel safer with them, but still use three of them (system+apps, samples, project files).

 

[fieldcar]

I don't know what will happen when MS tries to force us all to upgrade to Windows 11

They will just stop security updates in october of this year. LTSC will offer security updates until 2028.

What's the minimum for a processor? I want to stay with an intel chip, but avoid the ones that have been a problem. From what I have read so far, it seems like the ones ending in K are all right. How many cores do I need? (If it's any guide, on my old system, I had Cakewalk Sonar, Kontakt and a lot of Kontakt sample libraries. Mostly orchestral stuff. And, as you say, I don't know what to expect from SynthV.)

Since CPU model naming schemes are a mess these days, I just resort to passmark's benchmark lists to make decisions.

My personal benchmark minimum is 30,000 multicore and 3000 single core. I personally rock an AMD 5900X these days.

PassMark CPU Benchmarks - Top Gaming CPUs Performance

PassMark CPU Value Chart - Performance / Price of available CPUs

PassMark Software - CPU Benchmarks - Over 1 million CPUs and 1,000 models benchmarked and compared in graph form, updated daily!

www.cpubenchmark.net

PassMark CPU Value Chart - Performance / Price of available CPUs

PassMark Software - CPU Benchmarks - Over 1 million CPUs and 1,000 models benchmarked and compared in graph form, updated daily!

www.cpubenchmark.net

If you care about efficiency, some of the ryzen mobile processors used in some mini pc's are awesome. Look at the Ryzen 8745H for example.

Also, I hear bad things about SSD drives. Is it possible to use normal SATA drives with platters, if they're fast enough? I'd feel safer with them, but still use three of them (system+apps, samples, project files).

You're right. SSD's aren't good for long term and secure storage, especially if they are unpowered for any long period of time. Though, I can't stand anything but an SSD for my system drive. I run a truenas server with RAID5 for my projects and periodically backup important folders to google drive. I lost a ton of projects to a failed hard drive, so I won't make that mistake again. If I were on a tight budget I'd just try to squeeze it into the free tier of google drive or a similar alternative.

 

[ejr]

Looks like they have an LT verison of Windows 11 coming out now ...

Just wondering what, if anything, I lose by switching to either OS (and if it's possible to revert, if something comes up that I can't live with). For example, I have arthritis and can't use a mouse. I've had Wacom tablets for years, but it can be tough to get them to work with newer versions of Windows except in the "ink" mode (rather than like a mouse, which it what I want and need.) Also printer and scanner drives for my main (non-music) pc. And, of course, MIDI and other audio interfaces. Is ther anything specific for drivers that I need to watch out for. Will any of them actually say that they support these versions of Windows, or is it always a case of just try it and see? Thanks.

 

[Roland68]

Okay, it's been a long time since I have done this. The last PC that I used for music composition and orchestrating was built about 25 years ago (though it was updated several times since then). It had so many things wrong with it. When the last system drive irreparably crashed and I found that it was no longer possible to get the versions of a lot of the software I was using reauthorized (all of the software basically obsolete), I saved the data drive and back up drive (which contained all my project files) and finally ditched the thing.

Now I am starting almost from scratch again. I am considering two options. The first is to convert my other computer for my music (right now, I'm using it for everything else). It's a Dell Precision 3630 Tower running Windows 10 Professional 64bit with an Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-9500 CPU @ 3.00GHz and 8192MB of RAM. It has three HDD. Two are conventional SATA drives (one for OS and programs, the other for DATA) and one hybrid drive that I never use. I would add RAM, obviously and use the hybrid drive for samples. I also need a new audio interface, because the one I used on my old music PC doesn't have drivers for newer operating systems (I'm considering the SSL 2 Plus MKII USB). I intend to keep using Windows 10. This machine is never going to be online anymore. It will be stricktly used for one purpose only -- taking the music I wrote before I retired, re-orchestrating it using currently available sample libraries, adding AI vocal tracks using Synthesizer V, and producing audio demos. This will be done in the current version of Cakewalk (since the original versions are all in Cakewalk Sonor files). Finally, I will export them to MIDI files and then convert to a more detailed score in MuseScore 4). This is a musical theater project demo. It doesn't have to be a polished performance. The audio tracks are meant to be a guide for singers and musicians to aid in rehearsing a live demo. The score will be a starting point for a pro orchestrator.

So, the bottom line is, I need some input from pros who have done this kind of thing before and worked with more recent hardware than I had available at the time I started this. The alternative would be to buy a new music production PC and do it on that machine, while keeping this one for everything else. That was my original plan. The reason I am considering this alternative is because, frankly, I am dreading being forced to upgrade to Windows 11. I never upgraded this machine because of all the potential problems with it (not the least of which are security and privacy concerns). And I don't like a lot of what I have been reading about MS not allowing the user to override some of the most objectional features. Lately, my thinking is that, if this machine would do for my music, I'd be better off buying a UNIX system for my other PC. I don't think the full suite of MS Office that I am running locally (not on the cloud) is substantially different from LibreOffice and I am looking for Linux versions of my other apps, before deciding what I can live with and what I can live without.

No wrong answers here. I'm just looking for opinions from people who have worked with more recent music production software than I have and understand what I am trying to do. Thanks.

For PC systems, I would recommend a powerful HP workstation or an HP WS notebook from the high-end business series. These devices can often be obtained at surprisingly low prices through the HP Renew program. In my experience, they offer the best stability and reliability in PC hardware. There's no such thing as too much RAM.

Based on my many years of experience, however, I would recommend a Mac. It doesn't have to be anything big. Thanks to the high computing power of the new M processors, a Mac Mini with sufficient RAM is often more than sufficient. A Mac Studio is a real workhorse in this case.
It definitely saves a lot of time, and time is money.

 

[drumphil]

There isn't much point worrying about things you don't like about windows 11 if you're already running windows 10. You're already running MS telemetry.

Also, I hear bad things about SSD drives. Is it possible to use normal SATA drives with platters, if they're fast enough? I'd feel safer with them, but still use three of them (system+apps, samples, project files).

Probably the biggest difference in performance you will notice is from moving to a SSD. HUGE difference in peformance, and in spite of the worries of some, in general more reliable than mechanical devices like spinning disks. That ship has sailed, and computers have moved on to another realm of performance. No need for, or point to multiple drives to share the load.

Backups are important, that has always been true, and while some people have had bad experiences with SSD's, I can point you to a large pile of failed HDD's on my workbench.

Some tasks are CPU limited, but most time spent waiting on computers is spent waiting on disk access.

If I were you, I'd stick 32GB of ram in that system, install a 2TB SSD, something like the Crucial T500, and see how you get on. That system will take a CPU like the i7 9700K if you find you're bumping up against the limits of CPU performance.

You won't go back to old fashioned spinning rust for storage, once you've used a system with fast SSD storage. Nobody ever does. After you get used to the performance, just running a windows update on an old fashioned HDD will drive you mad.

If you end up doing things that just plain require more CPU power, or some kind of AI acceleration, you can move the SSD to the new system you build. But I'd start with a more reasonable amount of ram and a SSD.

If you do decide to build a new system, SSD and 32GB is a baseline non negotiable starting point. I mainly build AMD based systems these days, but I can still provide some useful advice with intel systems.

While video production can generally use as many CPU cores as you can throw at it, low round trip latency performance, for real time tracking, benefits from high individual CPU core performance. I still recommend 8 core CPU's for most audio work, due to the high per core performance compared to 16+ CPU core options available. More cores can give you more total power overall, but single core performance matters for live tracking. Depends on how huge your projects are expected to be.

The intel K cpu's are the same architecture as the normal ones, but typically have a higher power limit, and run at higher frequencies. They are also unlocked for overclocking, but I don't imagine you want to go down that rabbit hole. the i7 9700K I mentioned earlier is one such CPU that is compatible with your existing system. The i9 9900K is the most powerful CPU that will work in your system.

Whether or not looking at just the SSD and RAM, or upgrading the CPU too, or going with a whole new system is the best option is hard to judge without seeing just how much strain the stuff you want to do puts on the i5 9500 you have now. But RAM and SSD's aren't that expensive, and the SSD could be migrated in to a new system if you go that way later, so maybe not a bad start just getting a SSD and some more RAM.

If you're interested in mac land, the current mac mini systems are amazing value for money in terms of their processing power, both CPU and GPU, with one big asterisk, being the internal SSD storage and RAM upgrades. Adding an extra 256GB costs $300 (Australian). Same to add an extra 8GB of ram! So, the base model is amazing, but even small upgrades are incredibly expensive.

 

[staticV3]

@ejr
Here's a wealth of information on building (or buying) a sensible DAW PC: https://www.pugetsystems.com/solutions/digital-audio-workstations/

 

[drumphil]

You're right. SSD's aren't good for long term and secure storage, especially if they are unpowered for any long period of time. Though, I can't stand anything but an SSD for my system drive. I run a truenas server with RAID5 for my projects and periodically backup important folders to google drive.

Funny you mention that. I just built my new primary (not the final backup server, that's using ordinary HDD's) high speed SSD ZFS file server.

Got a $120 on ebay HP Z230 SFF with a xeon CPU, some DDR3 ECC ram out of a dead trash can mac, a $50 PCIE 3.0 X2 card that holds 4 NVME SSD's, and has an asmedia chip so you don't need a PCIE slot that supports bifurcation, two $16 PCIE 2.0 X1 to single NVME SSD slot card (all PCIE to nvme cards from Ali Express), a $20 realtek based 5gps ethernet card (Also from Ali Express), and $319 each 6 x 4TB Team Z44A7 SSD's (TLC nand), Truenas, RAIDZ2.

16TB of available storage, can survive two drives dying, and 500MB per second access over the network. Total cost, just over $2000 (Australian, so less in US dollars).



I'm going to get a cheap 10gbps ethernet card from aliexpress at some point, as I already have a 10gbps switch. I'm confident the drives can saturate the network. The HP Z230 SFF, with 6 NVME drives in those cards still has a X4 PCIE slot spare for the 10gbps ethernet card.

Stupid levels of fast for not that much money these days. 5 years ago it would have cost me a fortune to achieve that size, speed, and redundancy for my file storage.

 

[digitalfrost]

There is an episode of broken silicon podcast where a DAW engineer tells a bit about what he does. Might be an interesting listen. You might also steal some ideas from his website: https://aavimt.com.au

Also, while the stuff is expensive, ASUS has the Proart line, that is specifically meant for these kinds of use-cases.

 

[ejr]

I have had experiences with Macs and PCs. I had a sideline as a FileMaker developer for about 25 years and had to support clients on both platforms. Let's say that I did not part on good terms with Apple (the parent company of Claris, formerly called FileMaker, and originally called Claris). Nor do I care for their products or overall approach to things, so it will definitley be a PC for me. I am waiting for HP to get back to me with some questions and open to considering other possibilities. I just started wondering if the lite version of Windows 11 would be a better for me that the lite version of Windows 10 (if only for the reason that it would be supported longer).

Still don't like SSDs. Especially since I think my system is probably going to be pretty simple by today's standards. I don't need processing effects (just sample libraries), or dozens of tracks (enough for a small orchestra). Just want to run Cakewalk, Musescore/ and Synth V (probably, for AI vocals). The music is already written and arranged (minus the vocals) and until a couple of years ago it was all comfortably running on a Windows XP Pro 64-bit box built by a company that isn't around any more. ("Hush", I think, was the name of it.) My guess is that something near the bottom of the line today would be more than okay for me. Though I do want a full-sized tower and three HDDs. I'm used to working that way. I like to keep the project files separate. And, yes, I have external HDDs for backups and do them religiously on all my machines. Never lost any data ever. Incremental backups are the key. (I use Cobian backup -- which is a bit arcane, but free, and it gets the job done.)

Anybody using a Wacom tablet with Windows 10 or 11 LTSC? Do the Wacom drivers work? Does it force you to use Ink mode? (If it doesn't, when try to click on a track and move it, it ends up drawing all over the UI. That's what I am trying to avoid.)

 

[drumphil]

I have had experiences with Macs and PCs. I had a sideline as a FileMaker developer for about 25 years and had to support clients on both platforms. Let's say that I did not part on good terms with Apple (the parent company of Claris, formerly called FileMaker, and originally called Claris). Nor do I care for their products or overall approach to things, so it will definitley be a PC for me. I am waiting for HP to get back to me with some questions and open to considering other possibilities. I just started wondering if the lite version of Windows 11 would be a better for me that the lite version of Windows 10 (if only for the reason that it would be supported longer).

Still don't like SSDs. Especially since I think my system is probably going to be pretty simple by today's standards. I don't need processing effects (just sample libraries), or dozens of tracks (enough for a small orchestra). Just want to run Cakewalk, Musescore/ and Synth V (probably, for AI vocals). The music is already written and arranged (minus the vocals) and until a couple of years ago it was all comfortably running on a Windows XP Pro 64-bit box built by a company that isn't around any more. ("Hush", I think, was the name of it.) My guess is that something near the bottom of the line today would be more than okay for me. Though I do want a full-sized tower and three HDDs. I'm used to working that way. I like to keep the project files separate. And, yes, I have external HDDs for backups and do them religiously on all my machines. Never lost any data ever. Incremental backups are the key. (I use Cobian backup -- which is a bit arcane, but free, and it gets the job done.)

Anybody using a Wacom tablet with Windows 10 or 11 LTSC? Do the Wacom drivers work? Does it force you to use Ink mode? (If it doesn't, when try to click on a track and move it, it ends up drawing all over the UI. That's what I am trying to avoid.)

While I disagree on the drives, I get where you're coming from. But I think you may find you have issues even buying a new HP workstation without a SSD boot drive. We're past the point where smaller SSD drives are cheaper than the HDD equivalent, and so much faster, so noboy builds smaller HDD's for use as boot drives that get installed as part of standard packages.

Modern SSD's have got a lot better at things like not randomly bricking if power is lost briefly, and those kind of "omg it's all gone" type failures.

 

[somebodyelse]

Modern SSD's have got a lot better at things like not randomly bricking if power is lost briefly, and those kind of "omg it's all gone" type failures.

You can still get sudden failures with SSD, but you can still get them with HDD too. That's what backups are for! I still use HDDs for bulk storage where speed doesn't matter so much, but SSDs (particularly NVMe ones) are much faster for OS and working data. If you're used to the OS being on HDD then moving to SSD will feel like a major upgrade. The other reason I'd pick them for an audio workstation is lack of mechanical noise.

 

[kemmler3D]

If you do decide to build a new system, SSD and 32GB is a baseline non negotiable starting point. I mainly build AMD based systems these days, but I can still provide some useful advice with intel systems.

+1 for this. If you are using a bunch of big orchestral ROMplers 32gb+ ram and SSD are no brainers and not too expensive these days. Your current CPU is not bad and unless you are using a lot of effects may not end up being a limiting factor for your tracks. If you are worried about failures set up RAID 5 or something but spinning disks are only worth using if you need to have 4+ TB in data on one disk.

 

[ejr]

For those who use an SSD for the system drive (OS + applications), would you use an SSD for samples as well?

 

[digitalfrost]

For those who use an SSD for the system drive (OS + applications), would you use an SSD for samples as well?

Generally speaking, any kind of data profits from an SSD. My single biggest question when choosing where to put data is simply this:

- How big is it?

After that I ask myself how often I need it. In your case since you are actively working with these files, I would 100% put everything I can on the SSD. I don't know how much data you have, but I would assume a 1-2TB SSD would be big enough for everything?

I have 5 SSDs at the moment in my main system and ...a couple of others in other PCs. I have 1 Crucial MX500 that has been complaining in SMART for about 2 years, but it still works (I put it into a RAID1 mirror with a 2nd SSD, so if it goes I can easily replace it). Generally I want to recommend Crucical, they seem to know what they're doing. I think Samsung is the most sold manufacturer, but of the 2 Samsung SSDs I had in the past, both had issues. Never had a problem with Crucial.

Other vendors I use are WD Black (WD SSD = ex Sandisk) (they're lightning fast, but my MSI board has compatibility problems with them in M2_1 slot) and my most recent purchase has been a Lexar NM790 (chinese, good price/performance no complaints so far).

If you want seperation of duties, you could buy a fast M.2 SSD for the system + temp files and get a larger cheaper SATA SSD for the storage.

 

[Snarfie]

Using now for let see 2012 till now Ableton with Lenovo Thinkpad X230 I5 8gb ram. Upgrade 2TB SSD it is really flying still. Making for fun re-edits for own use. No commercial intent what so ever just making use of multitrack files. Wondering if other forum members are creating such tracks them self. Did lately Nirvana - In Bloom only drums, bass, Kurt voice an leave out the rest ( wall of sound for a better expression)

For me it is so rewarding if it finally comes together as i imagine

 

[Timcognito]

FYI

Microsoft Windows 11 Pro | StackSocial

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www.stacksocial.com

 

[ejr]

Does any vendor actually sell a pc with Windows 10 or 11 LTSC installed, or does everyone just buy it separately and install it over the version of Windows that ships (and presumably forces you to set up a Microsoft account)?