Recommendations for digitizing vinyl

[Mr. Swordfish]

Hello, first post here:

I'm about to embark on a project to convert a couple hundred vinyl LPs to digital. Looking for advice about what gear to obtain to do this right.

At one point I had a couple thousand vinyl LPs, most of them I have replaced with CDs or just gotten rid of due to lack of interest. The ones I kept are either recordings that are not available on CD, of things I don't listen to enough to justify the expense of buying a digital recording. There's probably about 200 or so to transfer.

I'm not a vinyl-phile (once the LPs are transferred I probably won't ever play them again) or an "audiophile"; my background is pro audio (broadcast, live recording, live sound reinforcement) and that somewhat colors my attitudes and expectations about what audio devices can and cannot do. In particular, it strikes me that the most important factors in transferring the LPs to digital are (in order)

1. Quality of the recording itself
2. The phono cartridge/stylus
3. The phono pre-amp
4. The A to D converter
5. The turntable itself

Of course, nothing can be done about item #1 other than choosing another record. My experience is that transducers (speakers, microphones, phono cartridges) are the most critical components that have the biggest impact on sound hence the cartridge being #2 on the list above. Unfortunately, my experience is that you can't choose a transducer based on specs alone - you have to listen to them, and they all color the sound to some degree, sometimes for the better, sometimes not. Opinions on cartridges cheerfully accepted. I used Stanton back in my broadcast engineer days, but probably more for their durability than sound.

We have a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Evo turntable in the den with the stereo (with the Sumiko Rainier Cartridge that came with it) , and it sounds "good enough" I don't want to move this into the computer room since my wife likes her vinyl, so I'm looking to buy a turntable. Something with a similar quality. That particular model is sold out, so I can't just buy a second one.

Options are:

1. An all-in-one turntable that has a pre-amp and USB output
2. A turntable with a preamp, and use my current D/A converter (M-Audio M-Track plus)
3. A turntable with a preamp, and replace D/A converter
4. A turntable without a preamp, and either my current or a replacement D/A

Seems like most of the high end turntables do not come with a built in preamp, and the cartridge quality (or more specifically, price) goes up with the price of the TT. I've been able to find good specs on external phono preamps and A/D, but I haven't found any good technical reviews of built-in preamps. If I'm going with an external preamp, the Fosi Audio Box X5 seems like the obvious choice, although the offerings from Radio Design Labs might be more my speed.

Option 1 seems like the simplest path, and something like the Audio Technica LP-120XUSB would probably do the trick. I'm familiar with the Technics 1200 that it's modeled after, so as an old pro-audio hand I tend to gravitate towards that kind of offering. But I don't see any specs of the pre-amp or the A/D converter. And I have to admit that I never particularly cared for AT microphones, whether their cartridges are any better is an open question.

The contenders for option 2 would seem to be the Denon DP-300F Turntable + Ortofon 2M Red Upgrade or one of the lower priced Fluance models.

Open to suggestions for A/D converters for option 3 - back in the day, I just used whatever A/D converter was built into the DAT recorder with good results; and while I have yet to digitize anything with the M-Track, I've been using it for years to convert SPDIF to USB and as a D/A converter. As a D/A converter it sounds identical to the D/A converters on the various DAT machines as near as I can tell. So, I'm not convinced the A/D is that crucial a part of the signal chain, but I'm open to test data showing otherwise. The $55 Pocket ADC seems to measure quite well, so maybe that's a viable option instead.

For option 4, seems like Pro-ject and Fluance are the best regarded options. None of the Pro-ject offerings come with an internal pre-amp, but for an additional $99 you can have one installed. My take is that for about the same price the solidly-measuring Fosi X5 would be the way to go. Not sure what the point of diminishing returns is for the models from Pro ject and Fluance.

The budget for this is not unlimited, but I'm willing to spend a few extra $$$ for better quality. Since I'm only going to do one shot at transferring each LP, best to err on the better side. OTOH, I'm not going to pony up $5k for an A/D converter. I

Misc data: not interested in bluetooth. Don't see the need for more than 16 bit linear PCM 44.1k (redbook standard) audio for this. Plan to record to .wav files and perhaps convert to flac to save storage space. Latency is not a factor for this project. Music style is all over the map.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions/opinions.

 

[kemmler3D]

Hello, first post here:

I'm about to embark on a project to convert a couple hundred vinyl LPs to digital. Looking for advice about what gear to obtain to do this right.

At one point I had a couple thousand vinyl LPs, most of them I have replaced with CDs or just gotten rid of due to lack of interest. The ones I kept are either recordings that are not available on CD, of things I don't listen to enough to justify the expense of buying a digital recording. There's probably about 200 or so to transfer.

I'm not a vinyl-phile (once the LPs are transferred I probably won't ever play them again) or an "audiophile"; my background is pro audio (broadcast, live recording, live sound reinforcement) and that somewhat colors my attitudes and expectations about what audio devices can and cannot do. In particular, it strikes me that the most important factors in transferring the LPs to digital are (in order)

1. Quality of the recording itself
2. The phono cartridge/stylus
3. The phono pre-amp
4. The A to D converter
5. The turntable itself

Of course, nothing can be done about item #1 other than choosing another record. My experience is that transducers (speakers, microphones, phono cartridges) are the most critical components that have the biggest impact on sound hence the cartridge being #2 on the list above. Unfortunately, my experience is that you can't choose a transducer based on specs alone - you have to listen to them, and they all color the sound to some degree, sometimes for the better, sometimes not. Opinions on cartridges cheerfully accepted. I used Stanton back in my broadcast engineer days, but probably more for their durability than sound.

We have a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Evo turntable in the den with the stereo (with the Sumiko Rainier Cartridge that came with it) , and it sounds "good enough" I don't want to move this into the computer room since my wife likes her vinyl, so I'm looking to buy a turntable. Something with a similar quality. That particular model is sold out, so I can't just buy a second one.

Options are:

1. An all-in-one turntable that has a pre-amp and USB output
2. A turntable with a preamp, and use my current D/A converter (M-Audio M-Track plus)
3. A turntable with a preamp, and replace D/A converter
4. A turntable without a preamp, and either my current or a replacement D/A

Seems like most of the high end turntables do not come with a built in preamp, and the cartridge quality (or more specifically, price) goes up with the price of the TT. I've been able to find good specs on external phono preamps and A/D, but I haven't found any good technical reviews of built-in preamps. If I'm going with an external preamp, the Fosi Audio Box X5 seems like the obvious choice, although the offerings from Radio Design Labs might be more my speed.

Option 1 seems like the simplest path, and something like the Audio Technica LP-120XUSB would probably do the trick. I'm familiar with the Technics 1200 that it's modeled after, so as an old pro-audio hand I tend to gravitate towards that kind of offering. But I don't see any specs of the pre-amp or the A/D converter. And I have to admit that I never particularly cared for AT microphones, whether their cartridges are any better is an open question.

The contenders for option 2 would seem to be the Denon DP-300F Turntable + Ortofon 2M Red Upgrade or one of the lower priced Fluance models.

Open to suggestions for A/D converters for option 3 - back in the day, I just used whatever A/D converter was built into the DAT recorder with good results; and while I have yet to digitize anything with the M-Track, I've been using it for years to convert SPDIF to USB and as a D/A converter. As a D/A converter it sounds identical to the D/A converters on the various DAT machines as near as I can tell. So, I'm not convinced the A/D is that crucial a part of the signal chain, but I'm open to test data showing otherwise. The $55 Pocket ADC seems to measure quite well, so maybe that's a viable option instead.

For option 4, seems like Pro-ject and Fluance are the best regarded options. None of the Pro-ject offerings come with an internal pre-amp, but for an additional $99 you can have one installed. My take is that for about the same price the solidly-measuring Fosi X5 would be the way to go. Not sure what the point of diminishing returns is for the models from Pro ject and Fluance.

The budget for this is not unlimited, but I'm willing to spend a few extra $$$ for better quality. Since I'm only going to do one shot at transferring each LP, best to err on the better side. OTOH, I'm not going to pony up $5k for an A/D converter. I

Misc data: not interested in bluetooth. Don't see the need for more than 16 bit linear PCM 44.1k (redbook standard) audio for this. Plan to record to .wav files and perhaps convert to flac to save storage space. Latency is not a factor for this project. Music style is all over the map.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions/opinions.

I'm not a turntable enthusiast, but from what I've seen and heard I think you are on the right track with stylus and phono pre being important determinants of quality. Probably you will be in good shape with any decent TT / stylus, the Fosi box and your existing M-Track, but not finding any measurements or specs for it, it may end up being a limiting factor.

One thing I didn't appreciate until more recently is the need for significant headroom in the preamp, when it's lacking it really does sharpen the sound of dust and scratches in an obvious way, so I would say don't skimp on the preamp. I think the Fosi is fine but I wouldn't try to talk you out of an upgrade on that.

I might try a loopback test of the M-track just to make sure you aren't getting a ton of noise or distortion at normal recording levels. if that ends up being the case, the pocket ADC is probably suitable as you note.

People really like to recommend the waxwing preamp on here, it has fancy digital features that apparently reduce noise effectively. Since this is a one-time digitization project you could get one on eBay (edit: none on ebay right now!), digitize everything, and re-sell it, and come away with (probably) audible benefit and no lasting damage to the wallet. It also has digital out so you don't need to worry about D/A and you can just feed it into the M-track?

BTW welcome to ASR!

 

[Peterinvan]

If you have LP albums that are not available on Tidal/Qobuz then I see the point.

But if you find your LP albums on Tidal, why bother trying to digitize them?

When I retired and downsized to a condo, I spent weeks ripping my CD collection to FLAC. I have transferred these tracks to my DAP for mobile listening. I disposed of the CDs.

I have been curating my playlists on Tidal for years and that is now my preferred source at my desktop system. Tidal is now doing a good job at recommending new artists and albums based on my preferred music.

I seldom visit the FLAC files on my desktop system.

 

[morillon]

If you already have a preamp phono...a standard sound card... or even a nice old one with a digital input and the little MiniDSP Pocket
Or
Adept minidsp

 

[RPoitou]

Unless all your records are in really good condition you'll probably have to spend some time editing for click/pop removal (lots of easily available software to do this) so although 44.1kHz sampling should be enough it's worth recording in 24 bit even if you subsequently save as 16/44 FLAC. I would also suggest a turntable arm setup that makes it easy to swap cartridge or stylus to suit different records - maybe a second hand Shure body that can use a variety of modern stylii choices from ,e.g. http://www.dacapoaudio.com/
Also do read the posts here by Michael Fidler especially his description of the thinking behind his Spartan phono preamps - you'll learn a lot!

 

[phoenixdogfan]

If you have a standard audio interface like a Motu M2, you can route the output of your phone preamp to its analog inputs, do the A to D conversion, send the digital file to your PC via USB and use Window's software like Audacity, which is freeware and offers the capability to edit the file, do a file conversion to flac with file labeling so as to make losslessly compressed files readable by your server's player (Roon, JRiver).

As a matter of convenience and practicality, these kind of measures, IMHO, should only be resorted to if your streaming service doesn't have the album, and it's really something you want to hear. If you put each analog record this through those two filters, the list of albums you need to do this for will shrink dramatically, which is really good, because going through this process is a true PIA.

 

[Apesbrain]

Suggest you hookup your den stereo to your M-Audio ADC and record a few LP sides on your laptop using Audacity. Get a sense for how much time this takes and whether the end result meets your expectations. It's trivial to connect the ADC to a tape out on your amp/receiver and disconnect it when not in use.

 

[RPoitou]

As a matter of convenience and practicality, these kind of measures, IMHO, should only be resorted to if your streaming service doesn't have the album, and it's really something you want to hear. If you put this through those two filters, the list of albums you need to do this for will shrink dramatically, which is really good, because going through this process is a true PIA.

It may be more convenient but streaming isn't for everyone and it's not the same thing as having a copy of your own personal records and enjoying the nostalgia of handling the sleeve and looking at the pics/ reading the sleeve notes

 

[LTig]

Unless all your records are in really good condition you'll probably have to spend some time editing for click/pop removal (lots of easily available software to do this) [..]

... and/or play the records wet, like the old Lenco clean. IMV a micro line needle is a must too.

 

[Petrushka]

Get a Waxwing, record your LPs, then sell it.

 

[morillon]

Get a Waxwing, record your LPs, then sell it.

If it's just for basic acquisition... waxwing isn't that interesting compared to much less expensive solutions.

 

[Mr. Swordfish]

If you have LP albums that are not available on Tidal/Qobuz then I see the point.

But if you find your LP albums on Tidal, why bother trying to digitize them?

That's a very good point. I'm about half way through my current project of transferring a bunch of DAT tapes to .wav files on a SSD, and the time involved in dubbing things off in real time (2 hours to transfer a 2 hour tape) is a lot. Then, the files need to be broken into tracks, assembled into albums, imported into the playback system (JRiver in my case), which takes about as long as the dub. We're spoiled with digital files that can be copied in seconds with all the data about tracks and song names.

The DAT tapes are live recordings that are not available elsewhere, so dubbing them is the only option. In many cases it's the only extant copy.

For my vinyl albums, it makes a lot of sense to find a better way. I'll look into Tidal/Qobuz. I'm guessing that there are a lot of obscure albums I have but they don't, but if they have it, it seems cost/time effective to just download instead of dubbing..

 

[Palmer]

... and/or play the records wet, like the old Lenco clean. IMV a micro line needle is a must too.

Oh boy, I remember that, long time ago - but you will punish whoever gets the records after...

Cheers

 

[Palmer]

That's a very good point. I'm about half way through my current project of transferring a bunch of DAT tapes to .wav files on a SSD, and the time involved in dubbing things off in real time (2 hours to transfer a 2 hour tape) is a lot. Then, the files need to be broken into tracks, assembled into albums, imported into the playback system (JRiver in my case), which takes about as long as the dub. We're spoiled with digital files that can be copied in seconds with all the data about tracks and song names.

The DAT tapes are live recordings that are not available elsewhere, so dubbing them is the only option. In many cases it's the only extant copy.

For my vinyl albums, it makes a lot of sense to find a better way. I'll look into Tidal/Qobuz. I'm guessing that there are a lot of obscure albums I have but they don't, but if they have it, it seems cost/time effective to just download instead of dubbing..

Have a couple of DAT tapes - I never come across a good machine to buy. So, if after your journey - you would be inclined to let yours go, drop me a note. I'd appreciate it.

 

[Mr. Swordfish]

It may be more convenient but streaming isn't for everyone and it's not the same thing as having a copy of your own personal records and enjoying the nostalgia of handling the sleeve and looking at the pics/ reading the sleeve notes

Yeah, streaming is not for me. OTOH, I don't enjoy the nostalgia of handling vinyl records, especially the part about putting them back in order on the shelf when I'm done.

And on the gripping hand, my understanding is that some streaming services allow you to download the material and save it on your local drive. If Tidal/Qobuz do this I'll go that route when the material is available.

 

[Mr. Swordfish]

Have a couple of DAT tapes - I never come across a good machine to buy. So, if after your journey - you would be inclined to let yours go, drop me a note. I'd appreciate it.

I hear you. It's an obsolete technology, but unlike open reel, vinyl, shellac, or edison cylinders which still play reliably, DAT is fairly finicky. My player died a long time ago, I'm currently using two borrowed ones which need to go back to their owners once I'm done. I'll let them know they might have a buyer at that time.

 

[DVDdoug]

My experience is that transducers (speakers, microphones, phono cartridges) are the most critical components that have the biggest impact on sound hence the cartridge being #2 on the list above.

Except for tracking distortion on hard-to-track records, the main difference between cartridges is frequency response. That can be tweaked with EQ and a lot records from the vinyl days were a bit "dull sounding" so they can benefit from boosting the highs a bit anyway.

As I'm sure you know, the records themselves are the weak-link. I wouldn't worry too much about the hardware unless you've got some obvious problems.

But if you have the budget you might want to consider the Waxwing preamp. It's got DSP click & pop reduction. I don't have any experience with it but if we were stuck in the vinyl days I'd probably buy one!

If I was buying a turntable I'd probably buy the AT-LP120USB. It doesn't seem too cheap and it's not crazy expensive (although the price of the current version has gone up). It comes ready-to-play with a cartridge and built-in preamp, plus it's got USB. And it's direct-drive so there are no belts or drive wheels to wear out. My 40-year old Technics direct drive (not the expensive DJ model) still works fine (although for the last few decades it's only been used for occasionally digitizing a record... It might not have lasted so long with continuous use...)

I was using an old receiver as a preamp with a regular soundcard. The receiver died with the last record I was working on so I bought the ART USB Phono Plus but I never ended-up using it because I found a (pirated) digital copy online. After buying it I found out the USB Phono Plus was "not recommended" by Amir because of noise.. But if i ever digitize a record again I'll probably use it anyway... The preamp noise should be lower than the record's surface noise.

...Your choice of recording software isn't important. I just captures the digital audio stream and writes it to the hard disk.

You may know this already but digital recording levels are not critical as long as you don't "try" to go over 0dB and clip (distort). You can amplify or normalize after recording and it's a lossless process. The typical recommendation is to shoot-for -3 to -6dB peaks. That's just a general recommendation so you have headroom for unexpected peaks. Pros usually record a lot lower.

But there are different options for noise reduction. Audacity has regular noise reduction and a noise gate, an automatic click removal effect, a manual repair effect, and you can manually re-draw the waveform.

I have a special purpose program called Wave Repair ($30 USD). It offers a handful of different repair techniques and it does an audibly perfect job removing most (but not all) clicks & pops. But it's manual... You have to identify & find the defects. That means it only "touches" the audio where you identify a defect but it also takes me most of a weekend to fix-up an LP... Not really practical for 200 albums, but perhaps worthwhile for a few special records with annoying defects.

I also have Wave Corrector which is fully automatic and now FREE but I don't have as much experience with it.

I Plan to record to .wav files and perhaps convert to flac to save storage space.

Metadata/tagging (embedding the artist, title, album, artwork, etc.) is better standardized and better supported with FLAC. Almost everything is better than WAV for tagging. For tagging I use MP3Tag which works for all of the popular formats, not just MP3.

 

[Palmer]

I hear you. It's an obsolete technology, but unlike open reel, vinyl, shellac, or edison cylinders which still play reliably, DAT is fairly finicky. My player died a long time ago, I'm currently using two borrowed ones which need to go back to their owners once I'm done. I'll let them know they might have a buyer at that time.

Should have bought one, or two about 10 years ago. Didn't, and sort of regret it. Could use a Tascam DA-88, too.

 

[digitalfrost]

I am able to create vinyl rips that sound almost identical to CD if the master was the same. My recommendations would be:

- Get an Audio-Technica Microline stylus, or something of similar quality. I very much enjoyed the AT33PTG/II, but the AT-VM95ML is a very good budget option. JICO SAS needles are also amazing.
- Turntable setup is most important. Create your own arc template or use a ready made one, but make sure the alignment is correct. I prefer Löfgren A with DIN inner grooves. I've also dabbled in custom alignments. A cheap USB microscope can help with adjustment.
- An adjustable phono pre where you can take care of cartridge loading is important. I would not buy a pre where I could not adjust capacitance and resistance
- As for turntables, I bought a belt driven one and I think a direct drive would've been better. Despite having an adjustable motor control unit, it's very hard to hit 33.33 precisely. Having the turntable being exactly level very much affects the rpm.
- Also I would care about the ability to adjust VTA if you want to try different cartridges. I think the Audio Technica LP-120 offers a lot of bang for the buck, especially when paired with their 95ML cartridge. Maybe you do not need a dedicated pre with that, since it should work with AT MM carts out of the box.
- Audio interfaces does not matter much except for good drivers. I would stay away from Focusrite. When it works it's good, but there's been so many documented issues with their drivers I would not bother. Interface quality is usually much better than the quality of the phono pre and the vinyl, so like no need to spend big bucks on an interface

As for cleaning up the recording, I like the https://archive.clickrepair.org/software_info/clickrepair.html software as well Izotope RX. Both have their strengths.

 

[Mr. Swordfish]

Should have bought one, or two about 10 years ago. Didn't, and sort of regret it. Could use a Tascam DA-88, too.

Some DAT machines are still available on ebay. I recently bought one, but it wouldn't play any of my ~30 year old tapes without a hideous amount of digital glitching so I returned it. YMMV. There are places that will transfer your DATs for a nominal fee but no experience with them.