Recommendations for AVR that's good with music too?

[SaulOteng1467]

So as per the title looking for an AVR that sounds great with music.

I had a really old second hand cheap AVR that I bought from eBay for $250 US from a company called Sherwood (RD 705i), I don't think they have any credibility but the amp sounded amazing (for me) with everything that I threw at it.

Unfortunately the Sherwood died and I couldn't find another one. So I got another this time from a more reputable company Yamaha (RX V475) but it sounded not as good as the Sherwood. Lacking in detail and sound separation for music and movies.

So my question is does any body have any good recommendations for 2nd hand AVRs at the $250 US. Maybe it's not possible at this price point but I'm just chancing it maybe someone has a good recommendation and I'll get lucky. Thanks for reading.

 

[-Matt-]

Sorry I can't make a recommendation (I don't know), however your question is interesting...

I believe that there is a long standing mythology based on the idea that stereo amplifiers are "musical" but AVRs are not. Within this mythology brands such as Yamaha, Marantz, Arcam etc are considered to be on the more musical side whilst Denon is purely for movies and therefore couldn't possibly sound "musical". (I'm very happy with music played through my Denon AVR).

On this site we trust in measurements, and consider that essentially all properties that affect sound reproduction are captured by the frequency response, power, directivity of speakers, SINAD, etc as presented in Amir's reviews. I do not believe there are any non-measurable properties that significantly alter an amplifiers electrical performance.

What features should we look for in the measurements to indicate when one amp is "musical" whilst another is not? I'd like serious suggestions to this question. Large surplus of power perhaps for improved dynamics maybe?

Personally, I'm not convinced that there are any such features and consider this concept of "musicality" to be largely marketing spin or bumpf churned out by HiFi magazines. What we should aim for is simply the best measuring amplifier that fits in our budget and has the features that we need.

 

[davlynam]

Sherwood was a great audio company back in the day, not surprised it sounded so good. .

 

[SaulOteng1467]

Sherwood was a great audio company back in the day, not surprised it sounded so good. .

Yeah, it seems unfortunately the newer Sherwoods are difficult to get even secondhand...But I suspect that the same thing that happened to my receiver probably happened to the other Sherwood...It was reported on another forum that Sherwood had HDMI board issues from 2005 onwards so Im guessing that's why I can't see many of those amps on the second-hand market..

Actually, just now I got a Pioneer VSX 534 (Bestbuy) and its awesome! So I suspect that the Yamaha that I bought on eBay that's said the manufacturer refurbished maybe had a fault. The Pioneer VSX 534 is actually worse feature-wise than the Yamaha RX 475 but the Pioneer sounds really nice...I have dynamism and 'engagingness' back in the audio that I had with the Sherwood. the I have learnt for myself is dont buy Hifi's on eBay lol

 

[GalZohar]

Theorectically, an AVR usually has worse raw performance than dedicated stereo amplifiers, but may very well compensate for it with room correction (assuming Audyssey xt32 or better) and bass management. In practice this claim is tough to prove. Note that whether the better performance of dedicated stereo equipment is audible or not is also difficult to prove, and again even if exists will be minor compared to the obvious effects of room EQ. The x3800h review thread has a lengthy discussion on the topic, which hadn't concluded with any proof.

 

[Vacceo]

I have a technical question, guys. When is the room EQ applied? Before or after the conversion from digital to analogue? When is it technically possible to apply? Both on the digital and analogue stage or on both?

 

[GalZohar]

I have a technical question, guys. When is the room EQ applied? Before or after the conversion from digital to analogue? When is it technically possible to apply? Both on the digital and analogue stage or on both?

The filters are done digitally, after decoding, and before conversion to analogue.

 

[Vacceo]

The filters are done digitally, after decoding, and before conversion to analogue.

Does that degrade signal quality or is it due to another element? Amir has mentioned several times that SINAD in AVR´s and AVP´s cannot get as high as integrated amps and preamps due to the DSP´s.

 

[GalZohar]

Does that degrade signal quality or is it due to another element? Amir has mentioned several times that SINAD in AVR´s and AVP´s cannot get as high as integrated amps and preamps due to the DSP´s.

The idea of room correction systems is to make the sound better, not worse. If they make the sound worse, then their algorithm is not a successful one (there apparently such systems). You can always turn corrections off to see. With MultEQ-X you can even delete all measurement data to have 0 filters applied but possibly still have the room EQ system enabled, and test if having it on/off has any effect on SINAD. It shouldn't, as 0 filters means no change to the digital data, which means the result after the DAC should be the same. Of course this all comes from technical understanding of the topic, and not actual testing, so theoretically there could be some hidden aspects I'm not taking into account.

I think SINAD in AVRs and AVPs cannot get as high because of how much hardware is included inside. For example, in PCs it's known that external sound cards perform better than internal ones due to electromagnetic noise from other parts of the hardware. In any case, for the digital portion, this isn't an issue, as it simply applies math in a fixed way that gives the same result every time regardless of the hardware that runs it (as long as the hardware is fast enough to keep up with the pace, or else nothing will work).

 

[peng]

So as per the title looking for an AVR that sounds great with music.

I had a really old second hand cheap AVR that I bought from eBay for $250 US from a company called Sherwood (RD 705i), I don't think they have any credibility but the amp sounded amazing (for me) with everything that I threw at it.

Unfortunately the Sherwood died and I couldn't find another one. So I got another this time from a more reputable company Yamaha (RX V475) but it sounded not as good as the Sherwood. Lacking in detail and sound separation for music and movies.

So my question is does any body have any good recommendations for 2nd hand AVRs at the $250 US. Maybe it's not possible at this price point but I'm just chancing it maybe someone has a good recommendation and I'll get lucky. Thanks for reading.

I saw a Yamaha RX-A1050 on ebay for $210 if I remember right.

 

[Vacceo]

The idea of room correction systems is to make the sound better, not worse. If they make the sound worse, then their algorithm is not a successful one (there apparently such systems). You can always turn corrections off to see. With MultEQ-X you can even delete all measurement data to have 0 filters applied but possibly still have the room EQ system enabled, and test if having it on/off has any effect on SINAD. It shouldn't, as 0 filters means no change to the digital data, which means the result after the DAC should be the same. Of course this all comes from technical understanding of the topic, and not actual testing, so theoretically there could be some hidden aspects I'm not taking into account.

I think SINAD in AVRs and AVPs cannot get as high because of how much hardware is included inside. For example, in PCs it's known that external sound cards perform better than internal ones due to electromagnetic noise from other parts of the hardware. In any case, for the digital portion, this isn't an issue, as it simply applies math in a fixed way that gives the same result every time regardless of the hardware that runs it (as long as the hardware is fast enough to keep up with the pace, or else nothing will work).

I know this product has time and the functions are limited compared to an AVP, but with that review at hand, I´m not that sure how the amount of hardware is a clear reason for the reduction on SINAD.

Trinnov offers 100db SINAD and it is hard to argue that it packs an insane amount of technology. Previous generation Denon AVR´s were not too far and those also included amps, so your explanation, while plausible, may not be as clear as it seems.

Bottom line is that even if reaching 115 to 120db SINAD on a processor or receiver may be unfeasible, it is very possible to reach at least CD quality which for films and conventional audio (CD quality) is assured transparency.

 

[GalZohar]

I didn't mean it's the only thing that matters. It depends. The internal/external PC sound card example is a case where it probably does matter. In AVRs and AVPs maybe it has some effect but probably other factors probably often have a greater effect. In any case from the x3800h thread the conclusion is that the reduction in SINAD probably is due to the worse DAC chip and nothing else, although we can't know for sure obviously.