Recommendations for a new AMP/DAC Setup are welcome

[Lefuet]

Dear community,
I started researching the hi-fi topic for quite a while now, and I am still confused about a lot of stuff - but on another level

Let me explain my situation…

What do I want?
I would like to take my music listening experience to another level because music is great and probably something I will never stop to be interested in.
Therefore, I am looking for a DAC and AMP. The main purpose would be to use it with headphones.

At which level am I?
I researched different data formats for music, do know the difference between analog and digital, and, as a Biologist, have a good idea bout what we are capable to hear (frequencies). Therefore, I guess I do have basic knowledge.
Some months before I bought the Beyerdynamic DT 700 PRO X and might even get a DT 1990 PRO in the future. I use the motherboards sound chip and experimented with a cheap Chinese tube amplifier: Fosi Audio Box X4 Tube… it made the sound quality… worse
I am also planning to buy a turntable in the future - what I am mentioning because some AMps come with a pre-amp-function.

My ideas so far…
Somewhere else, someone recommended the Topping d10b DAC. I heard a lot of good stuff, but I can't really judge how good it actually is and what other options might do the job too. I think, I would enjoy a warm to clear sound with a lot of potential for sound stage.

On one hand, I think that the Topping A30 Pro would be a solid choice because of what it is capable to offer.
On the other hand, it is lacking the pre-amp function, which might be great if I buy a turntable or decide to use bigger speakers. That's not a dealbreaker because the main focus is set on headphones.

And even though I don't think I need a balanced Output yet - it might be nice to have the option. That's something I can't judge because I lack experience with this feature. Very often you don't need it if you don't know if you need it

If it comes to AMPs I was also reading a lot of good stuff about the Topping A90 and the SMSL HO 200.
I am slightly tending towards the HO 200 - simply because I think that the differences are minor while the price tag is much smaller. Even the simple and clean design is a bit more appealing to me. On the other hand, there are lots of great reviewers who say that the A90 is a solid choice.

I must admit that I am overwhelmed with all the numbers and appreciate all input that might point out what I might consider making a solid choice.
Feel free to suggest other options and point out if you think that I am wrong about something.
Everything is helpful

Thanks a lot in advance!


Edit:

I have forgotten about something important: my Budget…
I guess that I would love to find an AMP + DAC Combination that is at about… 600 Euros/Dollar (kind of 1:1 by now).
For everything above… I might be wrong, and I need to spend a lot more - please let me know if there are reasonable options which cost reasonable more

 

[AudioStudies]

I have the A90 and love it, but that would take up all of your budget just for the amp (it doesn't have a dac). Topping has many offerings, including dac/amp combos. You can see pics and descriptions at the Apos Audio web site, and many were reviewed here in ASR. If you can stretch your budget a bit, the RME ADI-2 FS dac is just wonderful both in terms of sound quality and features. They have come down in price recently, and the last I saw they were going for $999 at Sweetwater. I absolutely love mine.

 

[VintageFlanker]

Somewhere else, someone recommended the Topping d10b DAC. I heard a lot of good stuff, but I can't really judge how good it actually is

To judge "how good it actually is", you should first check its review here:

Topping D10 Balanced Review (USB DAC)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the new Topping D10 Balanced. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $139. The D10 Balanced as the name implies, comes in my favorite USB DAC package with the same cute orange display: Back panel is where the difference is: Balanced...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I think, I would enjoy a warm to clear sound with a lot of potential for sound stage.

Such things won't happen, or more likely won't be brought from the DAC itself. What you will hear is the digital signal converted flawlessly into analog. Period.

I guess that I would love to find an AMP + DAC Combination that is at about… 600 Euros/Dollar

Well, there is really no reason to go for separates. You should check DAC/Amp combos that will have plenty of power for the headphones you mentioned:

Topping DX5 Review (DAC & HP Amp)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Topping DX5 balanced stereo DAC and (unbalanced) headphone amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $449. As you see the industrial design is all new. I like the large display and the feel of the volume control which is much...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Sabaj A20d 2022 Review (DAC & Headphone Amp)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Sabaj A20d 2022 balanced stereo DAC and headphone amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $420. The new revision is very attractive and stylish. It belies its low cost. I like the colorful display and clear indicators...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Joe Smith]

One consideration for separates would be if you would want to use the DAC occasionally to feed into a stereo setup with speakers, etc. I like being able to take one of my household dacs to sit between the computer (streaming interface) and the amp. I have a Schiit Modi 3, which gets power from the USB normally but has a power jack too if using a source that does not send enough or any USB power. Or, a JDS Labs Atom+ which does need a power brick.

You have a lot of options for your budget, that's for sure. If you think you might need balanced connections down the road, the Modius/Magnius from Schiit would be a good combination. I've had good luck with their equipment, also with JDS Labs. The new stuff coming out of SMSL is good too. Never heard anything bad about Topping but don't own any.

 

[AudioStudies]

JDS Labs

Excellent products and company, JDS Labs.

 

[Lefuet]

I have the A90 and love it, but that would take up all of your budget just for the amp (it doesn't have a dac). Topping has many offerings, including dac/amp combos. You can see pics and descriptions at the Apos Audio web site, and many were reviewed here in ASR. If you can stretch your budget a bit, the RME ADI-2 FS dac is just wonderful both in terms of sound quality and features. They have come down in price recently, and the last I saw they were going for $999 at Sweetwater. I absolutely love mine.

Arrr - looks interesting and promising, but that's too much for me to spend at once.

One consideration for separates would be if you would want to use the DAC occasionally to feed into a stereo setup with speakers, etc. I like being able to take one of my household dacs to sit between the computer (streaming interface) and the amp. I have a Schiit Modi 3, which gets power from the USB normally but has a power jack too if using a source that does not send enough or any USB power. Or, a JDS Labs Atom+ which does need a power brick.

You have a lot of options for your budget, that's for sure. If you think you might need balanced connections down the road, the Modius/Magnius from Schiit would be a good combination. I've had good luck with their equipment, also with JDS Labs. The new stuff coming out of SMSL is good too. Never heard anything bad about Topping but don't own any.

Yes, that's part of the plan - at least it would be good to have the flexibility to use the amp for usage like this.
If it comes to Shiit it's a bit of a problem - as far as I can tell It's not so easy to get them outside the US. I already tried to find shops for Germany… maybe I should take another try^^ JDS Labs is also something I will have a look at - on the first sight they appear to quite affordable.

To judge "how good it actually is", you should first check its review here:

Topping D10 Balanced Review (USB DAC)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the new Topping D10 Balanced. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $139. The D10 Balanced as the name implies, comes in my favorite USB DAC package with the same cute orange display: Back panel is where the difference is: Balanced...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Such things won't happen, or more likely won't be brought from the DAC itself. What you will hear is the digital signal converted flawlessly into analog. Period.

Well, there is really no reason to go for separates. You should check DAC/Amp combos that will have plenty of power for the headphones you mentioned:

Topping DX5 Review (DAC & HP Amp)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Topping DX5 balanced stereo DAC and (unbalanced) headphone amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $449. As you see the industrial design is all new. I like the large display and the feel of the volume control which is much...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Sabaj A20d 2022 Review (DAC & Headphone Amp)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Sabaj A20d 2022 balanced stereo DAC and headphone amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $420. The new revision is very attractive and stylish. It belies its low cost. I like the colorful display and clear indicators...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Yes, you are right about the DACs - my sentence was misplaced as far as I can tell

I have studied amirs review about the Topping d10b DAC. It gave me the confidence to consider it after it was recommended to me by someone else.

Still, it is kind of hard for me to judge the role of a DAC in full detail. I do know what it does… but not how much impact it has on the overall sound experience.

My reasons for separate units are mainly that I can upgrade them step by step - if needed. But yes, I was considering DAC-AMPs and I must admit that I am not quite sure about what to choose. At least another point which speaks for separate units is, what Joe Smith pointed out.

The SABAJ A20d nevertheless looks like a solid option - and it would save money… Maybe I should try to find out more about the pros and cons between separate units and DAC-AMPs. After all, I guess it's all about the points which have been allready stated.



Oh… and a big THANKS for all the answers and suggestions so far!

 

[RHO]

One consideration for separates would be if you would want to use the DAC occasionally to feed into a stereo setup with speakers, etc. I like being able to take one of my household dacs to sit between the computer (streaming interface) and the amp. I have a Schiit Modi 3, which gets power from the USB normally but has a power jack too if using a source that does not send enough or any USB power. Or, a JDS Labs Atom+ which does need a power brick.

You have a lot of options for your budget, that's for sure. If you think you might need balanced connections down the road, the Modius/Magnius from Schiit would be a good combination. I've had good luck with their equipment, also with JDS Labs. The new stuff coming out of SMSL is good too. Never heard anything bad about Topping but don't own any.

You could just as well use an AIO for that. Most have the option to operate as a DAC or pre-amp.

 

[RHO]

but not how much impact it has on the overall sound experience

If it's a good one? None. You will not hear it. Digital in => analog out. That's all it should do.

 

[Lefuet]

Argh… now I can decide even less easy

The SABAJ A20d comes with a really appealing form factor… One thing that bugs me is the fact that there is only this one big knob and everything else needs to be adjusted via remote. Sitting at my desk, it would be more convenient to have manual switches for differnt options.

On the other hand, there isn't even much of a difference if it comes to the price.

Topping A30 Pro or SMSL HO200 & Topping D10 B
come for 350 Euros + 140 Euros
490 Euros…

Topping A90 & Topping D10 B
come for 450 + 140 Euros
590 Euros…

The Sabaj A20d would cost 490 Euros…

…at least on Amazon.

And again it comes to the point where it is hard to tell, what might be the better choice…

 

[NiagaraPete]

I do know what it does… but not how much impact it has on the overall sound experience.

It converts digital to analog and should not have any effect on sound. If it does I wouldn't buy it.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Argh… now I can decide even less easy

The SABAJ A20d comes with a really appealing form factor… One thing that bugs me is the fact that there is only this one big knob and everything else needs to be adjusted via remote. Sitting at my desk, it would be more convenient to have manual switches for differnt options.

On the other hand, there isn't even much of a difference if it comes to the price.

Topping A30 Pro or SMSL HO200 & Topping D10 B
come for 350 Euros + 140 Euros
490 Euros…

Topping A90 & Topping D10 B
come for 450 + 140 Euros
590 Euros…

The Sabaj A20d would cost 490 Euros…

…at least on Amazon.

And again it comes to the point where it is hard to tell, what might be the better choice…

Technically they all sound the same (simply spoken) as they all measure excellently. . So make your decision based on the features you need, the money you want to spent and what looks you like.

 

[Lefuet]

It converts digital to analog and should not have any effect on sound. If it does I wouldn't buy it.

Yes, that's what I do understand Maybe it's just that I don't want to believe that there actually isn't a notable difference, what makes me wonder why the price tags very often differ quite a lot. I should probably ask which producer uses the sturdier material and which DAC or AMP would last longer

Technically they all sound the same (simply spoken) as they all measure excellently. . So make your decision based on the features you need, the money you want to spent and what looks you like.

I fear that if I would make a blind test, I wouldn't be able to tell a difference. But still it appears that many people express that they prefer one system over the other because of the sound quality. I don't know it, because this is the first time I might use more than just the mother board's output. Therefore, I am asking myself what AMP or DAC might provide the best experience.
Taking in regard that I am ignorant enough about fine differences... I must agree, that choosing features like knobs and switches would work out just fine But that's kind of unfulfilling

 

[NiagaraPete]

Yes, that's what I do understand Maybe it's just that I don't want to believe that there actually isn't a notable difference, what makes me wonder why the price tags very often differ quite a lot. I should probably ask which producer uses the sturdier material and which DAC or AMP would last longer


I fear that if I would make a blind test, I wouldn't be able to tell a difference. But still it appears that many people express that they prefer one system over the other because of the sound quality. I don't know it, because this is the first time I might use more than just the mother board's output. Therefore, I am asking myself what AMP or DAC might provide the best experience.
Taking in regard that I am ignorant enough about fine differences... I must agree, that choosing features like knobs and switches would work out just fine But that's kind of unfulfilling

I own the A30 pro and it seems well made. Time will tell how long it lasts.

 

[Lefuet]

I own the A30 pro and it seems well made. Time will tell how long it lasts.

May I ask what made you choose it, and did you compare it with options I have shown?
I also of course would be interested about what made you use the D30 DAC instead of something cheaper like the D10.

 

[KeithPhantom]

May I ask what made you choose it, and did you compare it with options I have shown?
I also of course would be interested about what made you use the D30 DAC instead of something cheaper like the D10.

I had that stack (A30 Pro and D30 Pro). The D30 Pro failed on the buyer just when they received it, but with me it was flawless. The A30 Pro is a pretty good piece of equipment, the knob feels pretty good, and it is really powerful but it heats up quite a bit (like a class-A amp, which I think it is). If you want to pump a lot of voltage into high-impedance headphones, the A30 Pro is a great choice.

 

[jpanda]

The Sabaj A20d 2022 is a good option for headphones with very low impedance (about 1W for a 12 Ohm headphone); but not terrible for the DT1990 (250 Ohms).
The Topping DX3 Pro+ gives twice the power of the Sabaj at 300 Ohms if you look at Amir's reviews.
The A30 Pro seems a good choice if you want to buy any type of headphones (from low to high impedance).
My personal experience on the DX3 pro+ is really good, just a tad lack of power on some recordings for the Aeon Noire.
It should not be a problem for the DT700 or DT1990.
And it is cheaper.

 

[Lefuet]

The Sabaj A20d 2022 is a good option for headphones with very low impedance (about 1W for a 12 Ohm headphone); but not terrible for the DT1990 (250 Ohms).
The Topping DX3 Pro+ gives twice the power of the Sabaj at 300 Ohms if you look at Amir's reviews.
The A30 Pro seems a good choice if you want to buy any type of headphones (from low to high impedance).
My personal experience on the DX3 pro+ is really good, just a tad lack of power on some recordings for the Aeon Noire.
It should not be a problem for the DT700 or DT1990.
And it is cheaper.

Thanks for your input!
But I get kind of more and more confused about the relation between price and value.
Right now, it appears to me that prices don't mean anything at all and that some kind of sound quality peak is reached at around 200 Dollars/Euros.
Above this price, you gain features like nice knobs or more power to drive demanding headphones, but no subjectively notable better sound quality.
Am I getting this right?^^

 

[djtetei]

@Lefuet
My suggestion to you is to go for separate components:
- DAC with or without built-in preamplifier and headphones output
- standalone headphone amplifier
- standalone phone preamplifier
All components mentioned above connected to a high quality mixer with PFL function, individual channel gain controls, balanced and unbalanced master outputs and with accurate level meters.
Don't shy away from balanced connections.
From here you could go the following routes:
- connect the mixer to active speakers
- connect the mixer to a standalone amplifier driving a set of good full range speakers (three ways, four ways, etc, according to your budget)
- connect the mixer to an active crossover network or speaker management system and then to active speakers and subwoofers
- connect the mixer to an active crossover network or speaker management system and then to separate amplifiers for passive main speakers and passive subwoofers
The configurations suggested above will allow you a great degree of flexibility, control, adjustability and upgradability.
Use good quality cables and don't try to find the holy grail with it. I can suggest Cordial cables - high quality, durable and no nonsense features and specifications, that won't brake your bank account.

 

[NiagaraPete]

May I ask what made you choose it, and did you compare it with options I have shown?
I also of course would be interested about what made you use the D30 DAC instead of something cheaper like the D10.

I settled on the A30 pro D30 pro based on Amir's reviews and what I wanted for features going forward. The combo has lot's of options for outputs and the headphone amp is really powerful. I also wanted the pass through features to drive active speakers.

 

[jpanda]

From what is measured so far by Amir, in terms of audio engineering, Topping (and equivalent brands like SMSL, Sabaj) are top notch.
More recents and expensive gears in those brands are usually more powerful and offer additional features (more inputs, outputs, connectors, ...).
In terms of audibility, in most of the case, difference between them are hard to perceive because they are below our audibility threshold.
The difference may be noticeable if you listen at high level or/and specific recordings with low frequencies.
The less powerful ones won't be able to reach very high volume (and without distortion) or would go into protection sooner.