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Recommendation: Putting together a new desktop audio system

DeruDog

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Hi. I am going back to school so spending a lot of time in my office studying. So now I am interested in getting some headphones and a DAC and Amp to replace my Grado SR60s I got back in 2000. SO basically I want to spend about $500 or $600 on a whole setup.

I was thinking I would continue up the Grado line, with a 325e, (Grado Hemp?) but I am now going down the rabbit hole on headphones. I appreciate the work Floyd Toole did on double-blind speaker preference testing, and was hoping to find something similar for headphones to help me in my decision. No dice so far.

For amplification, I would probably go with a Topping pair or maybe Topping/Atom. Schiit? They all seem like they will get the job done for $200-$250. That said, there are some of the cans that will need more amplification than others.

I also had a passing thought today on whether a MiniDSP would be a good DAC to do double duty as DSP? Maybe there's no point since I will be listening off of my computer and can DSP, if desired, in the future through software.

TLDR: Looking for recommendations for a headphone/DAC/Amp setup for under $600. Thanks
 

o7_brother

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For EQ software, EqualizerAPO and PeaceGUI are my favorites.

For a headphone in the 400 USD range, I'd recommend the Hifiman Sundara, since I consider it to be one of the top performers with a bit of EQ in that range. I would recommend a Schiit Magni Heresy amp and Modi 3 DAC, or the equivalent Atom amp and DAC from JDS Labs.

If you could go for a bit higher in budget, the Focal Elex is a great choice at 600USD, and it doesn't need much in terms of amplification.
 

outerspace

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Floyd Toole did on double-blind speaker preference testing, and was hoping to find something similar for headphones to help me in my decision
Sean Olive did the same work for headphones. He was Floyd Toole protégé. The main conclusions are this and this (it's links with timecodes). Good useful story about DACs/amps you can read here (conclusions are here).
 
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Sukie

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Headphones are much harder to assess than HPAs and DACs as there's plenty of scope for personal preference. I love my Sennheiser HD-600s but you're going to get a different sound from Grados. As @mnemonix says, the HD-600s are not as bright.
I would recommend a Schiit Magni Heresy amp and Modi 3 DAC, or the equivalent Atom amp and DAC from JDS Labs.

In terms of HPA and DAC, I think that, as you're in the US, the Schiit or JDS options are going to be hard to beat. The Topping DX3 Pro gives a cheap all-in-one solution if you were in Europe, but I think it will cost more than a Schiit or JDS combo in the US. I'm using the Atom HPA and it's spot on.

Main question though is headphones. Are you happy with the sound (and comfort-fit) of your Grados?
 
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DeruDog

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Sean Olive did the same work for headphones. He was Floyd Toole protégé. The main conclusions are this and this (it's links with timecodes). Good useful story about DACs/amps you can read here (conclusions are here).
The last link makes it sound like a modern PC DAC is as good as a separate DAC, in perceived sound quality. Is that accurate? If so, I could save $100 (or more) by not buying a DAC.

The first couple of links imply what I kinda thought, that good EQ software would compensate for different headphone "signatures." I wonder how timbre is affected, though, with higher and lower quality drivers.
 
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DeruDog

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Headphones are much harder to assess than HPAs and DACs as there's plenty of scope for personal preference. I love my Sennheiser HD-600s but you're going to get a different sound from Grados. As @mnemonix says, the HD-600s are not as bright.


In terms of HPA and DAC, I think that, as you're in the US, the Schiit or JDS options are going to be hard to beat. The Topping DX3 Pro gives a cheap all-in-one solution if you were in Europe, but I think it will cost more than a Schiit or JDS combo in the US. I'm using the Atom HPA and it's spot on.

Main question though is headphones. Are you happy with the sound (and comfort-fit) of your Grados?

I love my Grados, but they are all I have outside of earbuds or Bose Quietcomfort25. The Grados beat out the earbuds for sure. When I am critically listening, though, I don't get the same variations of timbre that I used to and I wonder if the Grados are wearing out, since my source has always been computer audio (MP3 through ALAC, FLAC) I do get tired of listening from time to time, and I am not sure if that is due to inconsistency in the treble ... or something else.

For speakers, I have some middle-of-the-road speakers in surround and a well-treated room and they also sound really good to me. Better than the Grados.
 

outerspace

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The last link makes it sound like a modern PC DAC is as good as a separate DAC, in perceived sound quality. Is that accurate?
You can get obvious audible problems with some DACs. Noise can be audible or output impedance can be very high and affect FR of some headphones. But in most cases all modern DACs (even onboard ones) can be considered as transparent.
The first couple of links imply what I kinda thought, that good EQ software would compensate for different headphone "signatures." I wonder how timbre is affected, though, with higher and lower quality drivers.
If headphones don't have audible distortions and too big FR variations they can be equalized to any other without problems. Grado SR60e seems like decent headphones.

The Grados beat out the earbuds for sure.
You can try this method to make them sound very similar or even the same.
 

3125b

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For amplification, I would probably go with a Topping pair or maybe Topping/Atom. Schiit? They all seem like they will get the job done for $200-$250
You're not going wrong either way, they're all good. I run an Atom Amp with a E30 DAC - if you are using an amp with analog volume control, a DAC with digital atenuation makes a lot of sense if you want to use sensitive headphones.

I think Grado has terrible value for money. Have a look at the HiFiMAN Sundara. Sensible factory sounding and of course very low distortion and good bass extension, so good for equalizing.
If at all possible, you should of corse test several headphones out.
The HD 58X or 6XX or the HE-4XX are also good choices in the US.
 

bobbooo

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I do get tired of listening from time to time, and I am not sure if that is due to inconsistency in the treble

Their bright tonal balance and peaky treble is most likely the reason for your listening fatigue when using the Grados - take a look at their frequency response here (top left graph). If you want a pair of headphones that have scientific support to sound good for the majority of people, take a look at the headphones near the top of this ranking list, which ranks according to Dr. Sean Olive's headphone preference formula that has a high 0.86 correlation with actual preference ratings given by listeners in controlled double-blind studies. I would personally recommend the HifiMan HE4XX. Be aware that this formula ignores the frequency response below 50 Hz, which is why the HD600 scores so well despite it lacking sub-bass. So I would check the frequency response (especially the sub-bass) of any pair of headphones you're interested in with this excellent database of measurements by Oratory1990, a professional acoustic engineer. He also produces parametric EQ profiles for all the headphones that you can use to get closer to the Harman target frequency response (which Dr. Olive found was the most preferred target by the majority of listeners in his research). You can actually see if you're one of this majority by EQing your Grados to the Harman target using Oratory's profile in the first link of my post above.
 

o7_brother

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Grado headphones almost invariably lack sub-bass extension because of how poorly the ear pads seal on the sides of the head.

For this reason, they cannot be EQ'd effectively in the bass. I would not recommend Grado in general because of this; no matter what you think of their other aspects, the sub-bass deficiency is always going to be there, even with a pad swap.
 

bobbooo

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Grado headphones almost invariably lack sub-bass extension because of how poorly the ear pads seal on the sides of the head.

For this reason, they cannot be EQ'd effectively in the bass. I would not recommend Grado in general because of this; no matter what you think of their other aspects, the sub-bass deficiency is always going to be there, even with a pad swap.

Yep, even with Oratory's EQ boosting the bass, they're still nearly 10 dB below the Harman target in the sub-bass.
 
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DeruDog

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You're not going wrong either way, they're all good. I run an Atom Amp with a E30 DAC - if you are using an amp with analog volume control, a DAC with digital atenuation makes a lot of sense if you want to use sensitive headphones.

I think Grado has terrible value for money. Have a look at the HiFiMAN Sundara. Sensible factory sounding and of course very low distortion and good bass extension, so good for equalizing.
If at all possible, you should of corse test several headphones out.
The HD 58X or 6XX or the HE-4XX are also good choices in the US.

Yes I am in the US, so choices are different from Europe.

Sundara is actually on sale right now for 350, so I may go that route. Are those phones more happy with higher amlification, or will the Atom/Topping do the trick? Or should I invest more in the amp and use my computer (RealTec) and equalizer software in lieu of a DAC?
 
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DeruDog

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Their bright tonal balance and peaky treble is most likely the reason for your listening fatigue when using the Grados - take a look at their frequency response here (top left graph). If you want a pair of headphones that have scientific support to sound good for the majority of people, take a look at the headphones near the top of this ranking list, which ranks according to Dr. Sean Olive's headphone preference formula that has a high 0.86 correlation with actual preference ratings given by listeners in controlled double-blind studies. I would personally recommend the HifiMan HE4XX. Be aware that this formula ignores the frequency response below 50 Hz, which is why the HD600 scores so well despite it lacking sub-bass. So I would check the frequency response (especially the sub-bass) of any pair of headphones you're interested in with this excellent database of measurements by Oratory1990, a professional acoustic engineer. He also produces parametric EQ profiles for all the headphones that you can use to get closer to the Harman target frequency response (which Dr. Olive found was the most preferred target by the majority of listeners in his research). You can actually see if you're one of this majority by EQing your Grados to the Harman target using Oratory's profile in the first link of my post above.

By the 4xx, do you mean the 400i? I cannot find the "4xx" on the HiFiMan site. Lots on sale, right now, though.
 

o7_brother

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By the 4xx, do you mean the 400i? I cannot find the "4xx" on the HiFiMan site. Lots on sale, right now, though.

He means the Drop (formerly Massdrop) HE-4XX, which is a slightly different version of the 400i for a bit cheaper I think. I would also call it a worse Sundara for Cheaper.

If you're really short on cash, an amp plus motherboard DAC would do the trick yes. You don't need more than a 100 USD Schiit or JDS Labs amplifier for any of these headphones.
 

3125b

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I mean the HE-4XX from drop.com. The Sundaras are better in some ways, but for 160$ the 4XX are pretty good headphones without a doubt.
The respective stacks are absolutely sufficient for all common headphones. To put that into perspective: For my AKG K702 and Beyerdynamic T90 I use 100% Windows volume, -6dB on Topping E30 and about 1/3 to 1/2 in low gain on my Atom. That‘s plenty.
With low sensitivity headphones like the Sundara the challenge is current delivery. On a source with high output impedance or just weak power supply that severely limits the current output that might not go so well and make the headphones sound flat, bright or coarse/distorted (if the amp is clipping). All the amps on your list go way beyond fulfilling your needs.
Just some exotics might need more power for very loud playback (like AKG K1000).
 

Iglo

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Or should I invest more in the amp and use my computer (RealTec) and equalizer software in lieu of a DAC?

Potentially you could use an Apple dongle as a DAC if you want to save up to invest more in an amp and/or headphones.

Before receiving my Topping E30/L30 stack, I used the Apple USB-C dongle. The sound was definitely better vs the internal sound card (Aorus X570 motherboard, don't know the chipset). I used the dongle with a cheap USB-A to USB-C adapter. But if the dongle will provide better sound quality is very much depended on if the internal sound card and if it's is noise free (for me this was not the case).

Overall I do prefer the Topping stack over the dongle but I expect that this is mostly due to the better amplification and less about the quality of the DAC. Although the E30 measurements are better vs the dongle the latter is definitely bang for the buck (if you need an external DAC).
 

outerspace

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For this reason, they cannot be EQ'd effectively in the bass.
You actually don't name the reason why they cannot be EQ'd. The only real reason for this is a high level of distortions in sub-bass region. But as I can see this is not the case of Grado SR60e. For me it's seems like they can be effectively EQ'ed in this region (10 dB on 30 Hz should be enough). Worth the try at least.
 
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3125b

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Rtings never seems to measure any distortion. Literally all headphones have <0.1% in their measurements.
 
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