Recommendation for ceiling speaker system

[mattzildjian]

Hi all,

I just got a message from my Bro in law who is currently building a garden summer house asking about suggestions for in ceiling speakers.
He is currently looking on facebook marketplace and has seen a listing for "Bose Freespace 3 Series 2 Speaker System." which is a commercial speaker system that's been pulled out of a shop.

It doesnt look like it includes the amplifier, there is another listing for an amplifier that may work? (on second look it doesnt seem to be the right amplifier for Freespace 3) (see attached images)

Since this all seems proprietary I really don't know what I am looking at, can anyone here help with this, is it a good system? A good price? Or a terrible idea?
Any advice and alternative solutions welcome.

Thanks!

 

[kyuu]

Assuming this is for playing background music from overhead speakers, I mean it should be fine. Don't expect to find any good objective measurements of those. There's probably better options available, but for the price and usage I wouldn't expect there to be much of a noticeable difference.

Nothing about the amp looks particularly proprietary, btw. Seems to have RCA inputs and uses a Phoenix/Euroblock connection for standard speaker wire.

 

[mattzildjian]

Assuming this is for playing background music from overhead speakers, I mean it should be fine. Don't expect to find any good objective measurements of those. There's probably better options available, but for the price and usage I wouldn't expect there to be much of a noticeable difference.

Nothing about the amp looks particularly proprietary, btw. Seems to have RCA inputs and uses Phoenix/Euroblock connectors for standard speaker wire.

Thanks for the reply. I am getting conflicting information about these, some say it's all proprietary.
The speakers require 70v / 100v inputs. Apparently this is what makes it unusual?

I don't think the amp that I uploaded is the correct one for this speaker system anyway. I think it needs something like the FreeSpace IZA 2120-HZ?
If anyone knows a low cost amplifier solution for the Freespace 3 Series 2 speaker set that would be a great help.

Otherwise if there is a recommended ceiling speaker system that has been well reviewed here on ASR that would be even better, thanks!

 

[Salt]

Monacor is a competitor in this field, but might be out of range.

 

[staticV3]

Otherwise if there is a recommended ceiling speaker system that has been well reviewed here on ASR that would be even better, thanks!

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ci250rrm-thx-in-ceiling-speaker-review.61115/

 

[kyuu]

Thanks for the reply. I am getting conflicting information about these, some say it's all proprietary.
The speakers require 70v / 100v inputs. Apparently this is what makes it unusual?

That's again not proprietary. 70V/100V is common for commercially-oriented speaker systems. With this, you can have long runs of speaker cables and multiple speakers daisy-chained together without having to worry about impedance or voltage droop.

I don't think the amp that I uploaded is the correct one for this speaker system anyway. I think it needs something like the FreeSpace IZA 2120-HZ?

That is a 70V/100V amplifier also using Euroblock connectors. If that will work with those speakers, then the one you originally linked will also work.

 

[mattzildjian]

That's again not proprietary. 70V/100V is common for commercially-oriented speaker systems. With this, you can have long runs of speaker cables and multiple speakers daisy-chained together without having to worry about impedance or voltage droop.

That is a 70V/100V amplifier also using Euroblock connectors. If that will work with those speakers, then the one you originally linked will also work.

Thanks again,

Can you check this specification sheet for that amp. it says Audio Output channels 1, is it mono? https://boseprofessional.com/produc...reespace-iza-190-hz-integrated-zone-amplifier

Additionally it does not directly state support for the Freespace 3 system, which has its own EQ profile apparently?

Compare to this one https://boseprofessional.com/produc...eespace-iza-2120-hz-integrated-zone-amplifier
Which has 2 outputs, and lists the 70v 100v nomical level that is not listed on the other one for some reason? Also lists FreeSpace 3 Acoustimass in the DSP preset section (but not DS16F? I am so confused with this.

When looking at the spec sheet of the DS16F they have a recommended EQ curve https://assets.boseprofessional.com/m/2d4f0e3255f32a6/original/303290-SM_rev00_Model_DS16F.pdf

I am used to simple setups and this is all very confusing to me.

 

[kyuu]

Thanks again,

Can you check this specification sheet for that amp. it says Audio Output channels 1, is it mono? https://boseprofessional.com/produc...reespace-iza-190-hz-integrated-zone-amplifier

They way they have it laid out is a bit confusing, but it appears the 190 is 1 channel at 90W, whereas the 250 is 2 channels at 50W each. For ceiling speakers for background music, running them all off the same channel is perfectly ok.

Additionally it does not directly state support for the Freespace 3 system, which has its own EQ profile apparently?

From what I'm looking at, the Freespace 3 system doesn't have an EQ profile so regardless of whether you're using the IZA 190/250 or the IZA 2120, you'd be setting it to the "Flat" EQ setting. From the tech sheet for the 2120:

Compare to this one https://boseprofessional.com/produc...eespace-iza-2120-hz-integrated-zone-amplifier
Which has 2 outputs, and lists the 70v 100v nomical level that is not listed on the other one for some reason? Also lists FreeSpace 3 Acoustimass in the DSP preset section (but not DS16F? I am so confused with this.

All these amps are 70V/100V. As noted, there is no EQ profile for those Freespace 3 models.

When looking at the spec sheet of the DS16F they have a recommended EQ curve https://assets.boseprofessional.com/m/2d4f0e3255f32a6/original/303290-SM_rev00_Model_DS16F.pdf

That doesn't appear to a built-in EQ function of any of the amps so far. You could use that EQ profile to use any system capable of PEQ to align the response to the target. Based on that curve, it looks like the most important thing is to knock down the response about 8dB with a fairly broad filter centered around 6500Hz. It also looks like they like to have them roll off very quickly under 80Hz.

I am used to simple setups and this is all very confusing to me.

Welcome to the world of professional audio gear.

Is this system expected to be hi-fi quality, or is it just for background music? For the latter, I wouldn't worry overmuch about all this.

 

[mattzildjian]

They way they have it laid out is a bit confusing, but it appears the 190 is 1 channel at 90W, whereas the 250 is 2 channels at 50W each. For ceiling speakers for background music, running them all off the same channel is perfectly ok.

From what I'm looking at, the Freespace 3 system doesn't have an EQ profile so regardless of whether you're using the IZA 190/250 or the IZA 2120, you'd be setting it to the "Flat" EQ setting. From the tech sheet for the 2120:

View attachment 471132

All these amps are 70V/100V. As noted, there is no EQ profile for those Freespace 3 models.

That doesn't appear to a built-in EQ function of any of the amps so far. You could use that EQ profile to use any system capable of PEQ to align the response to the target. Based on that curve, it looks like the most important thing is to knock down the response about 8dB with a fairly broad filter centered around 6500Hz. It also looks like they like to have them roll off very quickly under 80Hz.

Welcome to the world of professional audio gear.

Is this system expected to be hi-fi quality, or is it just for background music? For the latter, I wouldn't worry overmuch about all this.

Thanks again, still more confusion I need clearing up

So with one output you daisy chain all the speakers? And that is still Stereo?

According to this https://assets.boseprofessional.com/m/c443aceeb9f348f/original/tds_FreeSpace_3_ltr_EN.pdf
It says EQ is recommended for all speakers? The included frequency response is noted that is it measured with the recommended EQ applied.

It also doesnt mention the DS16F speakers making me wonder if they arent actually part of the Freespace 3 System, will they still connect to the same amp? They are full range. I can see that there is a preset EQ for DS16 on both the IZA 190/250 and IZA 2120, but assumedly applying that EQ preset would affect the other speakers that aren't designed for that EQ.

https://assets.boseprofessional.com/m/5a01a8daf6247ad7/original/IZA190-HZ_EC_02-png.png

https://djmania.gr/76085-large_default/bose-freespace-iza-2120-hz.jpg

I don't even know where to begin with ceiling speakers in terms of stereo, do you still seperate them left and right?
If there is only one output, how do you know what is Left and Right when connecting speakers anyway?

In terms of usage, this will be hooked up to a pre amp streamer using it for TV and music / radio and probably will be used when hosting parties for background music, but perhaps also loud music for dancing, would this still sound ok with higher volume? I don't think audiophile quality is expected but I do think it is expected to be impressive for the average person.

Thanks

 

[kyuu]

Thanks again, still more confusion I need clearing up

So with one output you daisy chain all the speakers? And that is still Stereo?

No, for stereo you need two channels of course.

I don't even know where to begin with ceiling speakers in terms of stereo, do you still seperate them left and right?

Yes, you would still need them positioned properly to the left and right to get any sort of actual stereo effect. If you aren't going to make any attempt to position them properly for stereo imaging, there isn't any point in running them in stereo at all. Most overhead music systems just run all the speakers in mono for this very reason.

If there is only one output, how do you know what is Left and Right when connecting speakers anyway?

There will be separate outputs for the different channels. What is left and right is arbitrary, but typically you'll have inputs labelled channel 1 and 2 and outputs labelled channel 1 and 2, and you'd probably want your stereo inputs (likely white/red RCAs) to have the left (white) as channel 1 and right (red) as channel 2 for simplicity sake. Then you'd run the speaker wire from channel 1 to your left speaker and channel 2 to your right speaker.

In terms of usage, this will be hooked up to a pre amp streamer using it for TV and music / radio and probably will be used when hosting parties for background music, but perhaps also loud music for dancing, would this still sound ok with higher volume? I don't think audiophile quality is expected but I do think it is expected to be impressive for the average person.

Given that, I will say this first and foremost: do not use in-ceiling speakers for your primary left and right speakers if you have any care at all for sound quality. People do it, but it's a huge compromise. No recording is ever made with the intention of being played back that way. Your left and right speakers should be as close to ear-level as possible. The ceiling is about as far from that as is possible. Fine for background music and the like, not great for a dedicated listening space, nevermind TV/movies.

There's also more than two speakers in that listing you posted. What are the extra speakers intended for?

 

[mattzildjian]

No, for stereo you need two channels of course.

Yes, you would still need them positioned properly to the left and right to get any sort of actual stereo effect. If you aren't going to make any attempt to position them properly for stereo imaging, there isn't any point in running them in stereo at all. Most overhead music systems just run all the speakers in mono for this very reason.

There will be separate outputs for the different channels. What is left and right is arbitrary, but typically you'll have inputs labelled channel 1 and 2 and outputs labelled channel 1 and 2, and you'd probably want your stereo inputs (likely white/red RCAs) to have the left (white) as channel 1 and right (red) as channel 2 for simplicity sake. Then you'd run the speaker wire from channel 1 to your left speaker and channel 2 to your right speaker.

Given that, I will say this first and foremost: do not use in-ceiling speakers for your primary left and right speakers if you have any care at all for sound quality. People do it, but it's a huge compromise. No recording is ever made with the intention of being played back that way. Your left and right speakers should be as close to ear-level as possible. The ceiling is about as far from that as is possible. Fine for background music and the like, not great for a dedicated listening space, nevermind TV/movies.

There's also more than two speakers in that listing you posted. What are the extra speakers intended for?

Right that's what I thought, it must be mono only from that single channel amp.

So the IZA 2120 HZ would be necessary to get stereo output.
I noticed the IZA 250 LZ also has 2 outputs but its not a 70/100v amplifier.

When looking at the IZA 2120-HZ for example: https://djmania.gr/76085-large_default/bose-freespace-iza-2120-hz.jpg
There are 2 stereo RCA inputs, but only 2 mono outputs. So am I correct to say that If I wanted a stereo input to be ouputted in stereo, I would connect a left signal to input 1, and a right signal to input 2, and then use output 1 as Left and output 2 as Right?

The listing has 3 subwoofers, 11 satellites, and 2 full range which seem to be seperate from the Freespace 3 system.
I think my bro in law is intending to install as many that will sensibly fit into the garden summer house. Perhaps just 2 subwoofers each with 2 satellites would be enough.
The satellite speakers have a label saying they must be used with an FS3-ii Acoustimass bass module, so it seems those satellites connect to the bass module. Maybe this is the proprietary part that I saw people mentioning.

 

[Waxx]

The doctor's practive of my sister in law uses visaton ceiling speaker, amped with a sonos amp and system for her waiting room (running in mono). It works very well as background music system and even can be quiet ok for more. I don't remember the types as she (actually my brother and me) installed them about a decade ago when renovating the office.

 

[mattzildjian]

So far most of what I have learned about these commercial speaker systems goes against most of what I know about home hifi / home theatre / stereo.. I suppose they are just entirely different applications and have very little in common with each other.

I still have some questions about the Bose Freespace 3-ii system and the amplifier.

Can that IZA 190-HZ amp power all the speakers in that listing? It is rated at 90W, but each subwoofer is 200W and there are 3 of them, are they passive? Each subwoofer has transformer taps on them with selectable wattages 25 / 50 / 100 / 200.

Also the listing has 2 full range speakers in addition to the freesapce 3 system sub + satellites. My guess would be the full range speakers were originally being used on a seperate channel, I don't think it makes sense to combine these with the subs and satellites, or would that be ok? I am not sure.