Recommendation for a $3-4k bookshelf speaker (upgrade from Ascilabs C6B)

[Mort]

I'm a big fan of Dennis, but there seems to be some scattered ideas going on involving products and product availability...I'd rather see fewer options and more availability of 4 or five models, but it's not my place to judge... they gotta do them...I do think the current tariff policies are creating less options for them as far as availability...

Dennis is a gentleman and artist. I love Ken too, truly. His heart is in the right place. And I think their products are end-game. What other wide directivity speaker could I upgrade to from the HT Tower? And would it be half as attractive? At the same time, I wanted to order one of the new Super BMRs, which is not cheap at $3500 and I would have to wait until January of next year! I can't wait that long and pay that much for an untested speaker.

I guess I'm still a fan boy but I'm losing some enthusiasm.

 

[amarsicola]

To make a long story short, I'm divesting of my horn speakers and tube amp and pivoting towards a class D amp and bookshelf speakers. I have the class D amp already (which I'm happy with) and to dip my toes into the stand-mount/bookshelf speaker world, I opted for the Ascilab C6B (I was lucky to get my hands on a pair a few month ago). These are fantastic speakers for the price, but now I'm looking for a step up.

Budget is $3-4k used or new. A natural choice would be Ascilabs A6B (I would guess they have similar characteristics to the C6B, which I like, just more and better?). But what else is out there that compares favorably, especially when considering used? KEF, Sonus Faber, B&W are recommended a lot, but I'm not familiar with their 'house sound' (if they have one), to make an educated short list. I like neutral, detailed sound, but it could slightly err on the warmer side, with a good 3D sound stage (the C6B stage well in the x direction, but could be better in the y and z axis imho). Would appreciate some suggestions of what to look into. Size should be similar or not much bigger than the C6Bs. Also, I have a small sub, so bass extension is not a big concern, although I wouldn't mind getting rid of the sub either (the A6Bs seem to be quite capable in that regard).

You should also take into account that after many years of your horn speakers, getting your ears accustomed to a proper "transparent" speaker can take time. Maybe your previous speakers shooted on some high frequencies.
It is very hard to objectively improve the Ascilabs C6B, just have a look at Spinorama.org and they are at the very upper end of achievable performance. Maybe concentric drivers could benefit the soundstage (Kef, MoFi) but you are likely to loose something in linearity, while AF Cadentia will probably improve distortion if you like to listen loud. The beauty of "objectivism" in hi-fi is that at some point you should recognize that further objective improvements are not possible or not worthy and you should just enjoy the music. Or maybe you are looking for more "detail" because you are experiencing some earing loss at high frequencies for aging, just equalize, but you will not defeat mother nature

 

[a4eaudio]

It is very hard to objectively improve the Ascilabs C6B, just have a look at Spinorama.org and they are at the very upper end of achievable performance.

Keep in mind the limits of what Spinorama actually tells us. I am a fan of the Ascilabs speakers, but a small bookshelf speaker with a 1" tweeter and 6" woofer using standard SBA drivers is not "at the very upper end of achievable performance". They are a great speaker for the money but its still important to keep things in perspective.

 

[Luvchampagne]

Totally agree with @a4eaudio . I've listened to them extensively in a treated room. F6b. C6b. A6b. S6b. C8c. C8c with bx8c. There's an audible difference. More than you think by looking at Spinorama. Especially at higher spl.

 

[Purité Audio]

Keep in mind the limits of what Spinorama actually tells us. I am a fan of the Ascilabs speakers, but a small bookshelf speaker with a 1" tweeter and 6" woofer using standard SBA drivers is not "at the very upper end of achievable performance". They are a great speaker for the money but its still important to keep things in perspective.

One chooses loudspeakers for their application, if you require 123dB continuous then clearly the C6B is not going to be the right choice.
Within their performance envelope AsciLab are superb.
Keith

 

[amarsicola]

Sure, a floorstanding speaker can deliver much more volume, but I understand that advice was requested on bookshelves. By the way Ascilab is launching towers

 

[Jonazkur]

You will not gain much by going different pair of bookshelfs besides bass. Ascilab S6B maybe would be next step up bcouse of the better tweeter. Adding 1 or 2 subwoofers to your system is the best choice imo.

 

[kemmler3D]

I really wonder how much more the 2-way bookshelf format has to offer beyond Ascilab. We can always imagine better bass extension but at some point doppler distortion will become a real problem, no? If you somehow managed to get 20hz @ 100dB from a 6.5" driver I don't know if it can actually sound good, the cone will just be flying back and forth so much.

I remember Lars mentioned that higher SPL from their tweeter was not really possible because the SPL at the diaphragm was so high it was causing nonlinearities in the air itself. So it seems that physics stands astride the path to (dramatically) better bookshelf speakers with the familiar dome/cone setup.

 

[Jonazkur]

I really wonder how much more the 2-way bookshelf format has to offer beyond Ascilab. We can always imagine better bass extension but at some point doppler distortion will become a real problem, no? If you somehow managed to get 20hz @ 100dB from a 6.5" driver I don't know if it can actually sound good, the cone will just be flying back and forth so much.

I dont personally care if company markets that 6.5” bookshelf goes to 20hz. You still barely notice that bcouse it just cant move enough air. My Purifi PTT8s just barely get there that you can say that they go to 20hz maybe. My 18” ht sub with 80mm xmax is good enough for real 15-20hz bass.

 

[kemmler3D]

I dont personally care if company markets that 6.5” bookshelf goes to 20hz. You still barely notice that bcouse it just cant move enough air. My Purifi PTT8s just barely get there that you can say that they go to 20hz maybe. My 18” ht sub with 80mm xmax is good enough for real 15-20hz bass.

Yeah, that's kind of my point... if you COULD get a 6.5" to move that much air, you would create too much doppler distortion (distortion of mids due to cone movement). Today we can't, but even if we could get that much bass out of a small cone, it would not be a true improvement.

 

[LiveTek]

You will not gain much by going different pair of bookshelfs besides bass. Ascilab S6B maybe would be next step up bcouse of the better tweeter. Adding 1 or 2 subwoofers to your system is the best choice imo.

The SB26ADC/CDC is so far beyond diminishing returns I truly wonder what anyone even expects from a "better" tweeter.

 

[Jonazkur]

The SB26ADC/CDC is so far beyond diminishing returns I truly wonder what anyone even expects from a "better" tweeter.

S6B has little bit lower compression at 1khz area than A6B bcouse of the bigger tweeter. But yes SB26ADC/CDC are almost as good as it gets for tweeters.

 

[a4eaudio]

...I truly wonder what anyone even expects from a "better" tweeter.

Try a Purifi, BlieSma, Raal, etc. in a properly executed design and find out.

 

[Jonazkur]

Try a Purifi, BlieSma, Raal, etc. in a properly executed design and find out.

Proper way to test SB26ADC vs Bliesma T34B would be using Audiohorn Pureshape wg for both, so both would have same 90degree coverage area. I just dont think myself that bliesma is worth the money.

 

[LiveTek]

Try a Purifi, BlieSma, Raal, etc. in a properly executed design and find out.

I stick to drivers that appropriately priced.

I don't need to buy a purifi tweeter to know it's not going to sound $680 better.

 

[Matt_Holland]

Something from the Buchardt range?
Klippel based designs. S400mk2 measures very well. E50 aligns with your budget, but diverts from measures neutrality. Very high quality components and beautiful cabinets.

 

[a4eaudio]

...sound $680 better.

This has no meaning.

 

[Matt_Holland]

I really wonder how much more the 2-way bookshelf format has to offer beyond Ascilab. We can always imagine better bass extension but at some point doppler distortion will become a real problem, no? If you somehow managed to get 20hz @ 100dB from a 6.5" driver I don't know if it can actually sound good, the cone will just be flying back and forth so much.

I think the classic 2-way bookshelf has already evolved into the coax 3-way like KEF R3 or Concerto Meta.

 

[LiveTek]

This has no meaning.

Diminishing returns - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[a4eaudio]

LOL, yeah I kind of know about diminishing returns. "Sounds $680 better" has no meaning because sound isn't measured in dollars. You probably meant "the additional marginal utility you get from a marginal increase in expenditures of $680 on tweeters isn't as high as the increase in marginal utility you receive from spending an additional $680 on other goods or services."

Diminish returns is about production (supply side) and diminishing marginal utility is demand side.