Recommendation: Adam S3V vs JBL LSR 708P

[Sprint]

@ all: thanks for your help! I am attaching my living room photos. So out of the discussion, what I interfere is the following:

1. Both S3V and 705/708 are the best choice. S3V and 708 being more midfield monitors. Has anyone heard Bowers & Wilkins 705S2 or 805 D3 and compared to S3V and 705/708? though there is no decent measurements on b&w, people rave about it and Abbey studios London is using them.

2. ADAM - Pros S3V: 3 way, best measured, excellent mids, AMT, S3H as center is superb. Cons: S2V does not fit as surround as I sit close to wall. Is there any other surround that will go with S3V?

3. JBL - Pros 705: Cheaper set up, smaller size better WAF, but is near field. Digicidal likes Adam for movies. I have lots of options from JBL for surrounds. I can even go for Revel surrounds. Cons: It is 2 way, 705 as center is smaller.

Could you please help what is the best option from the above 3 speakers looking at my living room? Or do you suggest completely a different speaker system. we do not like Neumann for the living room due to WAF.

 

[Ilkless]

@ all: thanks for your help! I am attaching my living room photos. So out of the discussion, what I interfere is the following:

1. Both S3V and 705/708 are the best choice. S3V and 708 being more midfield monitors. Has anyone heard Bowers & Wilkins 705S2 or 805 D3 and compared to S3V and 705/708? though there is no decent measurements on b&w, people rave about it and Abbey studios London is using them.

2. ADAM - Pros S3V: 3 way, best measured, excellent mids, AMT, S3H as center is superb. Cons: S2V does not fit as surround as I sit close to wall. Is there any other surround that will go with S3V?

3. JBL - Pros 705: Cheaper set up, smaller size better WAF, but is near field. Digicidal likes Adam for movies. I have lots of options from JBL for surrounds. I can even go for Revel surrounds. Cons: It is 2 way, 705 as center is smaller.

Could you please help what is the best option from the above 3 speakers looking at my living room? Or do you suggest completely a different speaker system. we do not like Neumann for the living room due to WAF.

B&W designs currently do not come even close to being consistent with psychoacoustic evidence favouring smooth directivity and response.

The Adams are a great design that's competitive with Neumann while providing some twists such as the AMT. There is no evidence that I know of to support the "metallic" sound of Genelec. It is a wholly unremarkable tweeter in the sense that it is practically indistinguishable from any other similarly-sized well-designed dome tweeter - just as smooth, just as controlled dispersion, just as low distorting and compressing. If its a matter of excessive treble, which can be setup-dependent, there is a treble switch.

Might I suggest a totally left-field option from outside of the pro-audio sphere? It is (surprisingly) a very high WAF floor-standing active speaker from a hi-fi manufacturer that's well-priced for what it offers IMHO. The Canton Smart Vento 9 (4.4k euro/pr - around 708 money):

I've listened a fair bit to the passive versions of the Vento series and came away highly impressed at the value they provide. The above is the active variant they just released. I found the Vento treble to be extended without fatigue, and the sound very enjoyable overall. The build quality is immense and beautiful. I couldn't believe they managed to manufacture a speaker in Germany (their Instagram has many pictures of their factory) with high-gloss curved enclosures in the price range covered by the Vento series. They won't hit Neumann levels of engineering, but they do the fundamentals well, with a decent enough waveguide and crossover. The Smart Vento 9 measures well (though not Neumann/Genelec-level - also note these measurements are not comprehensive):

However, distribution outside of Europe might be a bit patchy. I'm not sure where you are. There is a US retailer but they seem to only sell the passive offerings.

edit: Canton also directly sells a cheaper floorstanding active speaker that commemorates their 45th anniversary. It is sold exclusively-online (presumably Europe only though they might be able to point you to a way to get them wherever you are), and uses higher-end drivers than the Vento derived from their flagship line, but the enclosure isn't fancy and curved like the Vento series.

 

[Sprint]

B&W designs currently do not come even close to being consistent with psychoacoustic evidence favouring smooth directivity and response.

The Adams are a great design that's competitive with Neumann while providing some twists such as the AMT. There is no evidence that I know of to support the "metallic" sound of Genelec. It is a wholly unremarkable tweeter in the sense that it is practically indistinguishable from any other similarly-sized well-designed dome tweeter - just as smooth, just as controlled dispersion, just as low distorting and compressing. If its a matter of excessive treble, which can be setup-dependent, there is a treble switch.

Might I suggest a totally left-field option from outside of the pro-audio sphere? It is (surprisingly) a very high WAF floor-standing active speaker from a hi-fi manufacturer that's well-priced for what it offers IMHO. The Canton Smart Vento 9 (4.4k euro/pr - around 708 money):

I've listened a fair bit to the passive versions of the Vento series and came away highly impressed at the value they provide. The above is the active variant they just released. I found the Vento treble to be extended without fatigue, and the sound very enjoyable overall. The build quality is immense and beautiful. I couldn't believe they managed to manufacture a speaker in Germany (their Instagram has many pictures of their factory) with high-gloss curved enclosures in the price range covered by the Vento series. They won't hit Neumann levels of engineering, but they do the fundamentals well, with a decent enough waveguide and crossover. The Smart Vento 9 measures well (though not Neumann/Genelec-level - also note these measurements are not comprehensive):

View attachment 34125

However, distribution outside of Europe might be a bit patchy. I'm not sure where you are. There is a US retailer but they seem to only sell the passive offerings.

edit: Canton also directly sells a cheaper floorstanding active speaker that commemorates their 45th anniversary. It is sold exclusively-online (presumably Europe only though they might be able to point you to a way to get them wherever you are), and uses higher-end drivers than the Vento derived from their flagship line, but the enclosure isn't fancy and curved like the Vento series.

Hi IIKless,

Thanks a lot! I am from Germany. I have tried Canton Vento passiv version 890.2 in my living room 2 years back. It was good but the sound was not jaw dropping. I compared with XTZ Divine old model 100.33. The divine was much better sounding in comparison to Canton for me and my wife. I kept Divine and returned Canton. Later I returned divine as well due to re-arrangement in my budget. The Accuton drivers and Visaton tweeters were superb (more clarity, crisp, detailed and fun to listen to). My wife would be happy to get back Divine Delta. Due to large glass door, I am only scared that the new ceramic tweeters from Accuton in new XTZ Divine Delta may cause listening fatigue for long term hearing. Hence studio monitors.

During the high end this year in Munich, I listened to Vento 9K. Good but it did not excite me. From the high end, I loved Kii3 (unfortunately over my budget), Gradient, Cabasse. I also listened to S360. Again good speakers but I felt they weren't worth 4K Euro per piece. I also met Mr. Heinz from HEDD and checked if I could get HEDD 20 in a different paint. I liked HEDD compared to Genelec. I listened to JBL L100, also very sweet sounding speakers.

Now due to WAF, I cannot go for Towers.

 

[digicidal]

Now due to WAF, I cannot go for Towers.

Isn't subjective aesthetics fun? I honestly can't understand how monitors (especially very large ones) on stands will be different/better than towers.

That said, I understand far too well the fact that WAF can indeed become a primary factor in decision. I would definitely recommend listening to them first if possible, but I've considered these as an option for high WAF. They've got a ton of positive subjective reviews... but all of those add up to less than a friend's casual recommendation IMO. I can't find any measurements yet - although Andrew Jones has done well with similar designs (on speakers costing far less... as well as far, far more) so I'm pretty sure they don't suck.

EDIT: Felt I should add... although not necessary by any stretch, I find that having the front 3 (LCR) matching exactly is better than looking for a smaller center. I tried that originally (T7V L/R T5V C) and didn't care for it. However, I didn't ABX the two configurations - so it's totally possible that because I knew the center was smaller, it made it sound that way too.

 

[audiophool]

I'd demo the KEF R11. With this room, placement, and seating position, speakers like the S3V are going to perform much worse than their potential.

 

[beefkabob]

Just added an SVS PB-16 to the JBL 708p pair. OMFG does this setup work. I could see going sealed, but I watch movies with it.

 

[Ilkless]

Hi IIKless,

Thanks a lot! I am from Germany. I have tried Canton Vento passiv version 890.2 in my living room 2 years back. It was good but the sound was not jaw dropping. I compared with XTZ Divine old model 100.33. The divine was much better sounding in comparison to Canton for me and my wife. I kept Divine and returned Canton. Later I returned divine as well due to re-arrangement in my budget. The Accuton drivers and Visaton tweeters were superb (more clarity, crisp, detailed and fun to listen to). My wife would be happy to get back Divine Delta. Due to large glass door, I am only scared that the new ceramic tweeters from Accuton in new XTZ Divine Delta may cause listening fatigue for long term hearing. Hence studio monitors.

During the high end this year in Munich, I listened to Vento 9K. Good but it did not excite me. From the high end, I loved Kii3 (unfortunately over my budget), Gradient, Cabasse. I also listened to S360. Again good speakers but I felt they weren't worth 4K Euro per piece. I also met Mr. Heinz from HEDD and checked if I could get HEDD 20 in a different paint. I liked HEDD compared to Genelec. I listened to JBL L100, also very sweet sounding speakers.

Now due to WAF, I cannot go for Towers.

The actives have a DSP crossover as I understand (9K is also passive), and Canton seems to be quite committed to engineering speakers with good dispersion. I think Cantons sound largely similar to Revels with just a smidge more sparkle - though I wouldn't put much stock in my (or any) subjective impressions. The DSP might be a significant improvement like the LS50W was to the LS50. There is a standmount active Smart Vento 3.

The L100 looks a tad like the old L100 (similar form factor), except they've made it to follow closely the Toole/Olive research - so no surprises there.

I haven't heard the XTZ, but its a miracle that they can get Accuton drivers into a speaker at that price. There is no reason for any fatigue that's inherent to the driver. If there's fatigue, I tend to think its because the treble itself is elevated somewhere - that was my issue with the original LS50 even before measurements came out. Anyway, a slight downward slope should help if the speaker is well designed (smooth and around flat; uniform dispersion).

Gradient has a line of cheaper passive coaxial speakers (Gradient 5.1) that are very very rarely-discussed compared to the Helsinki 1.5, and the Revolution (which can be had as an active speaker). I liked them. I was told they use a similar coaxial driver to the flagship Gradient Revolution, which I assume was what you loved at High End Munich. They had a slight, midrange emphasis as implemented in the 5.1, but it was not fatiguing or intrusive. They use SEAS coaxials (like KS Digital), but has special modifications unique to Gradient to improve the treble performance compared to what SEAS supplies others as I understand. They use a SEAS passive radiator instead of a more typical port. Basic measurements here (there is indeed a midrange emphasis that can be EQ'd out):

I admire Gradient for their unusual, but still well-implemented approach to speakers. Just googled and found a shop selling it to the EU. They are throwing in (very beautiful and solid and expensive) Dynaudio stands for free. I think that package is a fair price for a made-in-Finland speaker using a good made-in-Norway coaxial and passive radiator. @Juhazi has more experience with Gradient, so hopefully he can comment as well.

 

[Sprint]

Isn't subjective aesthetics fun? I honestly can't understand how monitors (especially very large ones) on stands will be different/better than towers.

That said, I understand far too well the fact that WAF can indeed become a primary factor in decision. I would definitely recommend listening to them first if possible, but I've considered these as an option for high WAF. They've got a ton of positive subjective reviews... but all of those add up to less than a friend's casual recommendation IMO. I can't find any measurements yet - although Andrew Jones has done well with similar designs (on speakers costing far less... as well as far, far more) so I'm pretty sure they don't suck.

EDIT: Felt I should add... although not necessary by any stretch, I find that having the front 3 (LCR) matching exactly is better than looking for a smaller center. I tried that originally (T7V L/R T5V C) and didn't care for it. However, I didn't ABX the two configurations - so it's totally possible that because I knew the center was smaller, it made it sound that way too.

@ digicidal: thank you! My wife has gone for a compromise. she is ok with ugly ones as long as they are not huge towers being prominent & making statement in the living room. So S3V, LSR are fine. I do not plan to place them on stands. They would be placed on top of my subs. The subs will be moved from the low board to the floor.

I saw the ratings in German Audio magazine like Steroeplay for ELAC Navis ARB-51. They are very well rated. But will struggle to get a center as Navis has only floor standers or book shelves for stereo. surrounds will be a problem too.

 

[Sprint]

Just added an SVS PB-16 to the JBL 708p pair. OMFG does this setup work. I could see going sealed, but I watch movies with it.

What is your room size? What is the listening distance? What speakers you had earlier?

 

[Sprint]

I'd demo the KEF R11. With this room, placement, and seating position, speakers like the S3V are going to perform much worse than their potential.

Not big fan of KEF :-(. Did not like their sound. Why do you think S3V will be worse in my room? They have great waveguides and hence reflection should be reduced. Moreover they are midfields meaning more direct sound at the listening place compared to near field. So should work for 4 meter distance.

 

[Sprint]

The actives have a DSP crossover as I understand (9K is also passive), and Canton seems to be quite committed to engineering speakers with good dispersion. I think Cantons sound largely similar to Revels with just a smidge more sparkle - though I wouldn't put much stock in my (or any) subjective impressions. The DSP might be a significant improvement like the LS50W was to the LS50. There is a standmount active Smart Vento 3.

The L100 looks a tad like the old L100 (similar form factor), except they've made it to follow closely the Toole/Olive research - so no surprises there.

I haven't heard the XTZ, but its a miracle that they can get Accuton drivers into a speaker at that price. There is no reason for any fatigue that's inherent to the driver. If there's fatigue, I tend to think its because the treble itself is elevated somewhere - that was my issue with the original LS50 even before measurements came out. Anyway, a slight downward slope should help if the speaker is well designed (smooth and around flat; uniform dispersion).

Gradient has a line of cheaper passive coaxial speakers (Gradient 5.1) that are very very rarely-discussed compared to the Helsinki 1.5, and the Revolution (which can be had as an active speaker). I liked them. I was told they use a similar coaxial driver to the flagship Gradient Revolution, which I assume was what you loved at High End Munich. They had a slight, midrange emphasis as implemented in the 5.1, but it was not fatiguing or intrusive. They use SEAS coaxials (like KS Digital), but has special modifications unique to Gradient to improve the treble performance compared to what SEAS supplies others as I understand. They use a SEAS passive radiator instead of a more typical port. Basic measurements here (there is indeed a midrange emphasis that can be EQ'd out):

I admire Gradient for their unusual, but still well-implemented approach to speakers. Just googled and found a shop selling it to the EU. They are throwing in (very beautiful and solid and expensive) Dynaudio stands for free. I think that package is a fair price for a made-in-Finland speaker using a good made-in-Norway coaxial and passive radiator. @Juhazi has more experience with Gradient, so hopefully he can comment as well.

Thanks! It was a 9k active speaker. It seems not many have listened to XTZ Divine delta. their accuton drivers are so good for music. but the divine delta does not have surrounds. I am even wondering going XTZ for music and go for Neumann white KH120 * 5 for movies. Do you think 120 is ok for my room with 4 meters listening distance?
I have listened to Gradient 5.1. Their bass out of bass radiator was bit annoying. Not my taste. But the Gradient 1.4 is superb. but 5.0 of Gradient 1.4 will be difficult in my room especially the center and surrounds. Plus it will way above my budget.

 

[audiophool]

Not big fan of KEF :-(. Did not like their sound. Why do you think S3V will be worse in my room? They have great waveguides and hence reflection should be reduced. Moreover they are midfields meaning more direct sound at the listening place compared to near field. So should work for 4 meter distance.

Sorry should have reworded that. I meant that the room acoustics and placement will bottleneck speaker performance. I would prioritize WAF and dynamics for this use case.

 

[beefkabob]

What is your room size? What is the listening distance? What speakers you had earlier?

The main listening area is maybe 16x28' but then it extends into an entryway and a dining area on opposite sides, so the whole space is maybe 16x48'.

I had McIntosh LS310 speakers before. Bookshelves that are almost exactly the same size. They could get plenty loud, but they're old and maybe need a refresh of some kind. That or the Carver power amp needs a refresh. Or the crappy DAC I had.

Listening distance is about 12 feet. Also, I don't much like surround sound, so it's just a 2.1 system right now. Soundstage doesn't get me extra excited. Clarity does.

Lastly, I am RMAing one of my 708p. Something is wrong with it since I got it. It makes a fluttering sound on extended bass notes and maybe a buzzing on some extended treble, though the latter is less obvious. They're supposedly going to replace it with a new one.

 

[Sprint]

@ all: thanks for your help! I am attaching my living room photos. So out of the discussion, what I interfere is the following:

1. Both S3V and 705/708 are the best choice. S3V and 708 being more midfield monitors. Has anyone heard Bowers & Wilkins 705S2 or 805 D3 and compared to S3V and 705/708? though there is no decent measurements on b&w, people rave about it and Abbey studios London is using them.

2. ADAM - Pros S3V: 3 way, best measured, excellent mids, AMT, S3H as center is superb. Cons: S2V does not fit as surround as I sit close to wall. Is there any other surround that will go with S3V?

3. JBL - Pros 705: Cheaper set up, smaller size better WAF, but is near field. Digicidal likes Adam for movies. I have lots of options from JBL for surrounds. I can even go for Revel surrounds. Cons: It is 2 way, 705 as center is smaller.

Could you please help what is the best option from the above 3 speakers looking at my living room? Or do you suggest completely a different speaker system. we do not like Neumann for the living room due to WAF.

@ all: Any other remarks?

 

[mi-fu]

The main listening area is maybe 16x28' but then it extends into an entryway and a dining area on opposite sides, so the whole space is maybe 16x48'.

I had McIntosh LS310 speakers before. Bookshelves that are almost exactly the same size. They could get plenty loud, but they're old and maybe need a refresh of some kind. That or the Carver power amp needs a refresh. Or the crappy DAC I had.

Listening distance is about 12 feet. Also, I don't much like surround sound, so it's just a 2.1 system right now. Soundstage doesn't get me extra excited. Clarity does.

Lastly, I am RMAing one of my 708p. Something is wrong with it since I got it. It makes a fluttering sound on extended bass notes and maybe a buzzing on some extended treble, though the latter is less obvious. They're supposedly going to replace it with a new one.

I have problem with one of my 705p too. But they said the 705p is out of stock (while A-stock is actually in stock on the webpage).

I have no choice but only return both speakers.

 

[beefkabob]

I have problem with one of my 705p too. But they said the 705p is out of stock (while A-stock is actually in stock on the webpage).

I have no choice but only return both speakers.

In hindsight, we should have ordered more speakers. You should be able to get the speakers repaired under warranty instead of returning them.

 

[TimVG]

I've owned the 705 and 708 - excellent speakers (as the measurements indicate).The 705 is absolutely incredible relative to its size.
That being said there do appear to be some quality issues with the active versions - not sure if you want to take a gamble. Even the passive versions had some small fit and finish 'issues'.

I feel the Genelec 8340/8350 should be on your shortlist as well. They measure better than their 'non GLM' counterparts (more advanced filter) which are no slouch themselves. I've never found Genelecs 'metallic' sounding, except when I placed them on my desk - the very early reflections from desk, walls and monitor (screen) really screwed up an otherwise good loudspeaker. Genelec also have a very reputable trackrecord and you rarely hear about defects - and even then they are quickly taken care off - even on discontinued models. They are also easily ordered online with 30 day return service.

The Adam S3V has nice measurements as well, with a neutral direct sound - directivity is good, but not on the level of for example Neumann or even Genelec for that matter (based on sound & recording measurements)

 

[PaulD]

I've owned the 705 and 708 - excellent speakers (as the measurements indicate).The 705 is absolutely incredible relative to its size.
That being said there do appear to be some quality issues with the active versions - not sure if you want to take a gamble.

I have 18 x 705p speakers as the surrounds in an Atmos post room - never had any hint of an issue with them...

 

[TimVG]

I have 18 x 705p speakers as the surrounds in an Atmos post room - never had any hint of an issue with them...

Just the vibe I was getting from the limited amount of European users.. Also since they are not as widely available here, getting replacements under warranty can be difficult, and repairs can take a while. The 705 is the single most impressive compact monitor I've ever owned - it packs a punch.

 

[BDWoody]

Just the vibe I was getting from the limited amount of European users.. Also since they are not as widely available here, getting replacements under warranty can be difficult, and repairs can take a while. The 705 is the single most impressive compact monitor I've ever owned - it packs a punch.

I have to agree. The more I listen to that little tiny 705p, the more impressed I am. They don't give up much to the 708's...