Recomendations for sub $1000 8 channel DAC: Motu, DIYinHK or other options

[maxreboband]

I am looking to upgrade my USB DAC to something that sounds much better. After reading everything I can find on 8 channel DAC's it seems like the only options under $1000 are the Motu series, I'm looking at the Ultralite AVB as it works on linux. Other than that I have found the site diyinhk.com while browsing these forums and they have a new model:

https://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-...c.html#/fifo_option-null/dac-xmos_and_dac_pcb

This one looks almost ideal but I can find very little information on that site and even less info on their diy DACs. Has anyone ever made a kit from them? What are your thought on their ES9038 kit from looking at their site? It looks like a pretty easy solder job besides the chip itself, I have no idea how to solder those tiny pins on the ESS chip.

Am I missing any other options in this price range?

 

[waynel]

Okto DAC8 Pro

 

[somebodyelse]

Define 'works on linux' - my impression from the linuxmusicians thread is that the MOTU AVB line is still needing kernel patching to try to get it working reliably.

What are you upgrading from, what's the purpose (surround, active crossover, something else?), and are there any specific required features? I assume it's just 8 outs, and that single ended only is OK based on the diyinhk kit. They say all the SMD components are soldered so you only need to do the through hole ones.

 

[maxreboband]

The Okto DAC8 is definitely at the top of my list but I just can't swing the $1200 for it once you add in shipping.

Right now I'm using a Asus Xonar U7 but the center channel and rear right channel just started linking together and play at half volume now so it's time to move on. I didn't see that about the kernel patching, that's interesting, from the rest of the thread though it sounds like most of the issues occur on Mac and Windows too and nothing sounded like it would bother me too much.

Mostly I use Roon for music in 2.1 and Kodi for home theater running a 7.1 surround setup. I don't really need many features, just the 8 outputs is fine. I also only use my Computer for audio, so USB is the only input I need.

I like the Motu because I do play guitar and have much more musically talented friends and it would be nice to be able to record them, but the Motu M4 would be plenty for that application, I'm just trying to justify the $600 price tag of the Utralite AVB.

I don't know how I missed that about the SMD components but that's good to know. Thanks for the replies.

 

[Vasr]

It is also going to depend on where you want the volume control. If in software on the PC (can be risky), then you may or may not have remote capability.

And where your crossover to the sub is going to be.

Choices:
1. Internal or external sound card the cheapest option. Internal cards can have ground loop issues. All of these have long-term reliability problems and can crap out at any time because of software or hardware issues.
2. HDMI extractors with built in DACs if you have HDMI or DVI-D or DisplayPort out on the PC (version does not matter). Don't usually have a hardware volume control.
3. Pro-audio like Motu. Most flexible if you can use it for other needs like recording or playing instruments but note that the hardware volume control on the Motu only works on the L and R, not all channels. You will need to do volume control at the source.
4. Cheaper digital only pre-pros like the IOTAVX or Outlaw 976 or Emotiva MC-700. Most convenient to integrate and use and come with channel balance, integrated volume, crossovers, delays, etc.

 

[Severian]

For quite a while I was obsessed with the idea of implementing software crossovers and using some kind of multichannel DAC but the volume control issue and latency ultimately made me abandon the idea as more trouble than it would be worth. I decided I was better off with a quality external DSP using two channel analog inputs.

I think the miniDSP 4x10 would be an option though, if you are just trying to avoid an ADC step and aren't fixated on PC-based software crossovers. I believe it accepts digital input and the rotary encoder can do volume control. Not a top tier DAC solution of course.

 

[somebodyelse]

I was looking at doing active crossovers, so the MOTU channel swapping issue struck me as really unhealthy. For surround I can see it would be less of a problem.

The Gen1 and Gen2 Scarlett 18i20 have upstream kernel support - certainly under budget but perhaps not the quality you're after? The ESI Gigaport eX claims to work with linux. We've not seen it tested yet though.

 

[datrumole]

For quite a while I was obsessed with the idea of implementing software crossovers and using some kind of multichannel DAC but the volume control issue and latency ultimately made me abandon the idea as more trouble than it would be worth. I decided I was better off with a quality external DSP using two channel analog inputs.

I think the miniDSP 4x10 would be an option though, if you are just trying to avoid an ADC step and aren't fixated on PC-based software crossovers. I believe it accepts digital input and the rotary encoder can do volume control. Not a top tier DAC solution of course.

when using windows volume control, there have been claims that it muddles with the resolution, but has anyone actually measured this to confirm this is even something worth noting/avoiding? also, has anyone confirmed that when using an external DAC module, it's still passing a full resolution signal to the DAC and the DAC is controlling the output voltage, despite being controlled by windows and not messing with the resolution?

i think the answer is no? so perhaps people are manifesting issues that perhaps not really there based purely on heresy?

also, EAPO has insanely low latency no? nothing that couldnt be tweaked by a small 'delay' if it really had to account for some latency, but i can't imaging it would be noticeable, again, manifesting issues that may not really be there

the only then real hope is to get an 8ch DAC with DSP (aurora dsp comes to mind that may fit the bill here) so you dont have to do multiple ADA conversions in the chain. which, has anyone measured if this is better or worse than the problems you went out of your way to avoid above?

 

[maxreboband]

I hadn't thought too much about volume control, right now I have hardware volume on the amplifiers but that isn't ideal, it'd be nice to have a master volume like the Okto dac8 has. The sub is easier, I set it higher for movies using the subs crossover and for music it's crossed over in Roon, I'm pretty happy with that setup.

I haven't seen many internal cards that fit the bill and the HDMI extractors I believe rely on the audio device to decode surround, I'd rather keep that on the computer, if that makes any sense. The Motu volume is definitely a flaw for home use. I didn't see any processors on the IOTAVX website and after Amirs review of the more expensive Emotiva processors I'm pretty hesitant to try their product. The Outlaw unit looks nice, but for the price I would rather spend a little more for the Okto dac8.

I would love one of the miniDSP units, I'm sure I would be happy with the sound quality, I'm not too picky (this thread might prove otherwise). I don't know of any of their units that does USB from the pc to 8 channels besides the https://www.minidsp.com/products/usb-audio-interface/u-dio8 and that one seems pretty expensive for usb to digital output, I would still needs DACs or their 10x10 to process before the amps. Unless I'm understanding their products wrong.

The Scarlett 18i20 is a good idea, I think it's sound quality would be fine for my usage, I'll have to look into that more. The ESI unit could be good too, I hope Amir reviews one soon.

I just read an artical about software volume and I can't speak to the accuracy of it, I'm not expert, it did make sense and have good data: https://archimago.blogspot.com/2019/06/guest-post-why-we-should-use-software.html
My usually set my physical volume to the max I want to hear and then use either Roon or Kodi to adjust the software volume.

The Aurora DSP is a great choice, with the caveat that it's a bit of work to implement and unfortunately they are sold out right now. I'm still thinking the DIYinHK kit looks good. I'm a little confused about the power requirements: Regulated 3.3V1(800mA), 3.3V2(200mA), +-12V(300mA) I'm not sure why 3.3V is listed twice, I've mostly made amplifiers which only needed one voltage. I also noticed in the Okto dac8 thread that it uses windows drivers from DIYinHK, that makes them seem more legitimate. It seems like it is possible to use a arduino to control volume and add a display, I found this article on doing it with a AK4490 https://www.dimdim.gr/2016/12/controlling-an-ak4490-dac-with-an-arduino/
That might be too far out of my comfort zone, I have trouble with arduinos.

Thanks for such interesting answers, it seems like there are a few more options than I thought, I'll have to do some more research into these options.

 

[waynel]

I hadn't thought too much about volume control, right now I have hardware volume on the amplifiers but that isn't ideal, it'd be nice to have a master volume like the Okto dac8 has. The sub is easier, I set it higher for movies using the subs crossover and for music it's crossed over in Roon, I'm pretty happy with that setup.

I haven't seen many internal cards that fit the bill and the HDMI extractors I believe rely on the audio device to decode surround, I'd rather keep that on the computer, if that makes any sense. The Motu volume is definitely a flaw for home use. I didn't see any processors on the IOTAVX website and after Amirs review of the more expensive Emotiva processors I'm pretty hesitant to try their product. The Outlaw unit looks nice, but for the price I would rather spend a little more for the Okto dac8.

I would love one of the miniDSP units, I'm sure I would be happy with the sound quality, I'm not too picky (this thread might prove otherwise). I don't know of any of their units that does USB from the pc to 8 channels besides the https://www.minidsp.com/products/usb-audio-interface/u-dio8 and that one seems pretty expensive for usb to digital output, I would still needs DACs or their 10x10 to process before the amps. Unless I'm understanding their products wrong.

The Scarlett 18i20 is a good idea, I think it's sound quality would be fine for my usage, I'll have to look into that more. The ESI unit could be good too, I hope Amir reviews one soon.

I just read an artical about software volume and I can't speak to the accuracy of it, I'm not expert, it did make sense and have good data: https://archimago.blogspot.com/2019/06/guest-post-why-we-should-use-software.html
My usually set my physical volume to the max I want to hear and then use either Roon or Kodi to adjust the software volume.

The Aurora DSP is a great choice, with the caveat that it's a bit of work to implement and unfortunately they are sold out right now. I'm still thinking the DIYinHK kit looks good. I'm a little confused about the power requirements: Regulated 3.3V1(800mA), 3.3V2(200mA), +-12V(300mA) I'm not sure why 3.3V is listed twice, I've mostly made amplifiers which only needed one voltage. I also noticed in the Okto dac8 thread that it uses windows drivers from DIYinHK, that makes them seem more legitimate. It seems like it is possible to use a arduino to control volume and add a display, I found this article on doing it with a AK4490 https://www.dimdim.gr/2016/12/controlling-an-ak4490-dac-with-an-arduino/
That might be too far out of my comfort zone, I have trouble with arduinos.

Thanks for such interesting answers, it seems like there are a few more options than I thought, I'll have to do some more research into these options.

The 8-channel volume control in the Okto DAC8 pro more than justifies the extra budget, It may save your speakers one day. I do not trust a PC or Rpi based software volume control (I'm speaking from experience).

 

[maxreboband]

I hear you there, I've been lucky I only had a signal come in full volume once, but I would like to never repeat that. I really am understanding and appreciating everything about the Okto dac8, it really is the perfect device for this situation. The worst con is the price and I'm going to want to upgrade to balanced amplifiers. The DIYinHK one in interesting but when you factor in making the DAC and the XMOS USB to I2S, building the PSU for it, making a case, setting up arduino control, if that is possible and dealing with any headaches that arise. I think the cost would be around $400 or easily more at that point and the time involved would be many hours. This might be a case where DIY is not worth it even for the learning experience.

 

[RogerM]

Here is another low cost solution I came across recently. But I have no idea about the quality of the DAC(s) it uses.
https://www.esi-audio.com/products/gigaportex

I'm actually also using a Xonar U7 in a 2.1 setup and it's working well. Linux host(RPi) with brutefir to do the sub/main cross-over and DRC. Volume control using the DACs inbuilt attentuators works well (not too dangerous as the U7 output isn't high enough to full drive the main amp !). Started looking for other USB DAC options as I am now itching to remove the passive cross-over from speakers do this all digitally. BUT, I realised that not all the outputs on the Xonar U7 are equal. The main L/R outputs use a high quality 2 channel DAC, while the remaining 6 channels share a single lower quality DAC. There is noticeably more noise on those 6 extra outputs and I am wondering if when I have to use them for the main speaker cross-over it will just be too noisy. Anyone else built active crossover for mains with the Xonar U7 ?

 

[waynel]

The worst con is the price

The worst con is the wait (seems to be 15-16 weeks) . I think the price is very reasonable for what it does.

 

[Vasr]

I didn't see any processors on the IOTAVX website and after Amirs review of the more expensive Emotiva processors I'm pretty hesitant to try their product.

Hmmm... looks like they have pulled the IOTAVX AVX1 7.1 4K. Not sure what happened there. It was the same unit as the Emotiva but with XLR outs.

The Outlaw unit looks nice, but for the price I would rather spend a little more for the Okto dac8.

If you have a computer as a single source and use it for software decoding, phase/delay settings, and crossover then the Okto is all you need. The Pre/Pros/AVRs are necessary if you don't have a computer to do that or have multiple sources.

 

[somebodyelse]

The Motu volume is definitely a flaw for home use.

Motu have a published API for controlling pretty much everything you can do through their web interface. It would be relatively simple to program a 'master volume control' app. It's a pity the arduino is outside your comfort zone - it could all be bundled into a physical remote with an ESP board, using a rotary encoder if you're not happy with buttons.

'm still thinking the DIYinHK kit looks good. I'm a little confused about the power requirements: Regulated 3.3V1(800mA), 3.3V2(200mA), +-12V(300mA) I'm not sure why 3.3V is listed twice, I've mostly made amplifiers which only needed one voltage. I also noticed in the Okto dac8 thread that it uses windows drivers from DIYinHK, that makes them seem more legitimate. It seems like it is possible to use a arduino to control volume and add a display, I found this article on doing it with a AK4490 https://www.dimdim.gr/2016/12/controlling-an-ak4490-dac-with-an-arduino/
That might be too far out of my comfort zone, I have trouble with arduinos.

I suspect one 3.3V is for digital and the other for analog on the 9038. If you can't handle the arduino side you could check whether this board would be compatible:
https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/diy-...bre-90x8-controller-with-display-p-13970.html

 

[meooms]

I use the DIYINHK 8 channel DAC in my pc based active crossover, and it sounds great. There are several open source software solutions for controlling the 9038 dacs . But it is a hassle to DIY it all, and good power supplies needed for the DAC will cost a lot as well.

 

[Skeptischism]

It looks about as average a PCB design and implementation as the rest of their products TBH. the 9038PRO is a difficult chip to get right nd it seems they have ignored much of the advice in the datasheet, as is their way ...

Being cheap is about all it's got going for it. as mentioned though, once you add decent power supplies, its not as cheap a proposition. IMO, as much fun as it is to play around with adding regulators etc, it would be preferable if any serious solution did it properly with onboard properly low noise regs to begin with.

 

[jtatknox]

You can put 4 ground loop isolated Khadas Tone Boards in a 1U rack enclosure for about $600.

 

[datrumole]

You can put 4 ground loop isolated Khadas Tone Boards in a 1U rack enclosure for about $600.

got a build thread or a BOM? have a minidsp udac8 that I'd love to swap for something of higher quality, didn't score well here

edit: also not seeing here how the boards are connected to present a single 8ch device to a computer

 

[somebodyelse]

There's a fraction more about it in the other multichannel dac thread and the follow up post - you need something like a USB to 4 x spdif output so that the spdif clock rates will be the same. The nanoDIGI 2x8 would have been ideal for DSP, but is no longer in production. The U-DIO8 could do it, but is rather expensive, as is the RME digiface USB which would also need toslink to coax adapters.

The photo seems pretty self explanatory - a pair of barrel sockets take 12V power and 12V trigger, leading to a relay switched by the 12V trigger. The relay switches the power to the 4 12V to 5V DC-DC converters which in turn power the Tone Boards.