Really Good Loudspeakers

[Purité Audio]

I am interested in hearing your opinions of really excellent measuring and sounding loudspeakers ( the two should go together right) , I am thinking of using Toole/Olive's work as some sort of guide in terms of what exactly constitutes a fine measuring product.
I would like loudspeakers at all price points and in all configurations.
Keith.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I am interested in hearing your opinions of really excellent measuring and sounding loudspeakers ( the two should go together right) , I am thinking of using Toole/Olive's work as some sort of guide in terms of what exactly constitutes a fine measuring product.
I would like loudspeakers at all price points and in all configurations.
Keith.

I'd think that would lead you straight to the M2, though I'd love to see the price points below the M2.

Tim

 

[Purité Audio]

The best measurements I have seen, are from the M2 , although I can only recollect seeing measurements with room correction applied, the Grimm Audio LS1 and another of Bruno P's designs the new Kii THREE.
I believe Revels salon measure pretty well too, the new Grimani speaker looks impressive JBL 4367 ,passive version of M2 of course.
I just was wondering about lower price points, and other approaches such as the Manger driver.
Keith.

 

[amirm]

I am of course totally biased so please feel free to ignore my response . If you want a speaker in single digital thousands of dollars, the new Performa3 series from Harman fits the bill. The F206 is $3,500 and F208 is $5,000 a pair. Here is the measurements performed by soundstage/NRC: http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/in...rforma3-f206-loudspeakers&catid=77&Itemid=153

Example graph for listening window (+- 15 degrees):

And the subjective part of the review: http://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/766-revel-performa3-f206-loudspeakers

Even lower cost yet is the M105/M106 bookshelves. Pair them with a sub and it is incredible how they sound.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I have the itch to upgrade and can't find anywhere to go - Small room, so the M105s with a sub would probably be a really good choice. If they were only active... I'm just not prepared to get back into all that gear and cable again.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The Stereophile "Tale of Two Speakers" link above is interesting. Atkinson wonders how these are two speakers that measure so similarly can sound different...then he goes on to correlate the differences to the measurements rather neatly.

Tim

 

[steve59]

I owned the kef R105/3 and they were remarkably flat, they used the kube eq and put the woofers inside the box to achieve deep bass without the usual 5-6 dB bump around 100 hz. They were solid, had 93.5 dB efficient and could go loud

 

[sfdoddsy]

The Neumann KH80 measures better than pretty much any speaker I’ve ever seen.

And judging by reviews sounds as good as its much more expensive brethren.

They cost under $700 a pair.

If I had a pair of subs, and wasn’t emotionally wedded to my DIY open baffles and financially to my KEF R3s, I’d be starting there.

 

[Ilkless]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/evidence-based-speaker-designs.6441/

I had a list here that I have just been too lazy to continue working on, but I will get around to it eventually. I would add Canton speakers to that list, especially their active floorstanding speaker line, which is a rare niche. Their stuff (especially active) measure well and are made in Germany at an accessible price - plus I don't think they have had particularly strong US or UK distribution

There's also KS Digital, who sell an active SEAS coaxial (similar to Gradients) with time alignment, crossover and phase linearisation DSP implemented in an FPGA. Their reflex tuning is a bit odd, but 250Hz-9kHz is +/- 1.5dB, with only a 10kHz on-axis dip like Gradient's coaxials that fills in off-axis.

For real far-out designs that measure well, Synergy horns and CBTs. The Mangers sound weird and measure weird.

 

[jhaider]

The Neumann KH80 measures better than pretty much any speaker I’ve ever seen.

And judging by reviews sounds as good as its much more expensive brethren.

They cost under $700 a pair.

If I had a pair of subs, and wasn’t emotionally wedded to my DIY open baffles and financially to my KEF R3s, I’d be starting there.

They really are a little ridiculous.

KH80 atop something like Linkwitz 521 bass panels, and a big sub in a corner for the 1st mode stuff? That would be fun.

 

[CDMC]

Personally, I think that loudspeakers are a bit hard to define by measurements alone, primarily due to the large variability of the rooms they go in. Just one example. I used a pair of Revel F36s for a period of time while my Magnepans were being rebuilt. Initially the Revels were a bit bright and edgy sounding. This was due to their being 2 feet from the sidewalls and room I have them in being pretty lively. The Magnepans with close placement to sidewalls don't suffer from this issue, because they radiate much less to the sides than a monopole cone speaker. By treating the first reflection points (less than $200 in treatments from GIK acoustics) on the sidewalls, the speakers were transformed from bright and edgy to open, accurate, and smooth sounding. (Although those changes were nothing compared to me changing cables and using cable lifters: Just Kidding!!!)

Another issue is that some speakers are hard to measure. Dipolar speakers (Magnepans, Martin Logans, Sound Labs, etc.) cannot be accurately measured outside of a Anechoic chamber. Quasi anechoic measurements simply don't work as you get to the bass frequencies.

So all that said, speakers that measure well and most consider to sound good:

1) JBL, starting with the 305p which can be had for $149 a pair when on a deep sale.
2) Anything Revel.
3) Anything PSB.
4) Anything Paradigm.
5) Anything Ascend Acoustics.
6) Anything Salk Sound.
7) Anything GR Research (Carnegie Acoustics)
8) Anything Philharmonic Audio (Dennis is no longer making speakers, but has some DIY flat pack options he is working on).

In speakers that are hard to measure, Magnepans, starting with the $700 LRS. I own Magnepans, have used them for more than 25 years and love them. That said, they have caveats. 1) They need a lot of space. 2) They are inefficient and need a lot of power (smaller ones 200w/ch into 4ohms, larger 400w/ch) which needs to be factored into their price, as big amps cost more. 3) They have somewhat compressed dynamics compared to dynamic speakers (something that you never see measured). 4) They are limited in the bass (and I don't care what people say, I have 3.5's and subwoofers with a crossover help them immensely, giving deeper, tighter bass and a cleaner sound as the panels are relieved of deep bass duty).

Now next week, my opinion of Maggies may change. I am driving 500 miles each way this weekend to meet a person and purchase his Salk Song 3s, as I was able to demo a pair and was amazed at how clean they sounded.

 

[q3cpma]

I'd say that ME Geithain's flagship, the RL901K2 (https://www.me-geithain.de/en/rl-901k2.html), deserves your attention very much. Especially since you seem interested in stuff like cardioid dispersion and other useful gizmos.

 

[LuckyLuke575]

From what I've heard, Klipsch are some of the best speakers around, esp because of the horns integrated into the design.

 

[VintageFlanker]

Q Acoustics Concept 300

Following the Concept 500 floorstandings, these are unusual standmount speakers: very deep (400mm) and heavy (14.5kg). The stands are included. MSRP is 3000£ / 3750€ / 4500$.

Q Acoustics is, in my book, a serious manufacturer who provide measurements and datasheets of their products. For example, the (impressive) Off-Axis response of the Concept 300's tweeter:

Tiers-measurements seem to confirm this performance.

From Stereo-Magazine:

From i-Fidelity.net:

 

[Doodski]

I owned the kef R105/3 and they were remarkably flat, they used the kube eq and put the woofers inside the box to achieve deep bass without the usual 5-6 dB bump around 100 hz. They were solid, had 93.5 dB efficient and could go loud

I performed KEF sales and KEF warranty service and as a perk I requested a pair of 107.2 matched tweeters for my home built tri-amp home transmission line speaker setup. Wonderful tweeters and the cost for do-it-your-selfers is very good at retail for non-matched pairs. I eventually skipped the matched pair stuff because I blew 2 tweeters and so I bought the regular versions.

 

[Doodski]

From what I've heard, Klipsch are some of the best speakers around, esp because of the horns integrated into the design.

Horns are lotsa fun. I've had Klipsche and Altec Lansing horns with tangerine green diaphragms. The Altec Lansings had more snap and sizzle.

 

[Ilkless]

This SEAS coaxial-based made in Germany active monitor (EMES Black) measures really good (source) up to the top octave, but not much coverage in English. Google suggests this is a cult classic in Germany, but not much representation beyond it. Review also says it measured low hiss/noise, which is a plus. It's on my to-hear list, because the LS50(W) driver is too small for my needs, the R3 too expensive (and I hate that the best coaxs on the market short of the very expensive Genelec are both proprietary and passive). Moreover, having heard Gradient's (very pricey) implementation of a SEAS coax (dips around 10-12kHz on-axis due to throat cancellation), I think the on-axis 10kHz dip is probably quite benign since it starts to fill in the slightest off-axis, so the listening window response per Spinorama would likely show a much shallower dip.




Reason why I have been looking at relatively obscure but long-established active monitor manufacturers with monitors that measure well is that I have been toying with the idea of renting a small office (fell in love with a space recently and found out rent was surprisingly affordable), giving it tons of acoustic treatment based on room measurements and selling obscure, but well-measuring/engineered active monitors on the small scale as a sideline. But the local hi-fi market is so tremendously hostile to evidence-based speaker design and hasn't matured enough for a large ASR/AVSForums-style niche to appear that the only viable strategy appears to appeal to first-timers that haven't been exposed to such anti-intellectual, science denialist dogma.

 

[q3cpma]

This SEAS coaxial-based made in Germany active monitor (EMES Black) measures really good (source) up to the top octave, but not much coverage in English. Google suggests this is a cult classic in Germany, but not much representation beyond it. Review also says it measured low hiss/noise, which is a plus. It's on my to-hear list, because the LS50(W) driver is too small for my needs, the R3 too expensive (and I hate that the best coaxs on the market short of the very expensive Genelec are both proprietary and passive). Moreover, having heard Gradient's (very pricey) implementation of a SEAS coax (dips around 10-12kHz on-axis due to throat cancellation), I think the on-axis 10kHz dip is probably quite benign since it starts to fill in the slightest off-axis, so the listening window response per Spinorama would likely show a much shallower dip.

View attachment 43689
View attachment 43690

Reason why I have been looking at relatively obscure but long-established active monitor manufacturers with monitors that measure well is that I have been toying with the idea of renting a small office (fell in love with a space recently and found out rent was surprisingly affordable), giving it tons of acoustic treatment based on room measurements and selling obscure, but well-measuring/engineered active monitors on the small scale as a sideline. But the local hi-fi market is so tremendously hostile to evidence-based speaker design and hasn't matured enough for a large ASR/AVSForums-style niche to appear that the only viable strategy appears to appeal to first-timers that haven't been exposed to such anti-intellectual, science denialist dogma.

You should try the new Fluid Audio FX serie. We don't have measurement, but they provide anechoic frequency response in their manual. The FX80 has a sad 5dB dip at the crossover point - the woofer is probably too big (8") and playing to low (-3dB at 35Hz) for the 2.4kHz crossover point - but the FX50 is remarkably flat. Add to this that they do the crossover in DSP and have a pretty diffraction free enclosure, and they're extremely good for that price (the FX50 is 170€/unit here).
The only thing preventing me from buying them, is that I've seen a few reviews talking about hiss and I lack more important measurements like directivity or CSD.

 

[Ilkless]

You should try the new Fluid Audio FX serie. We don't have measurement, but they provide anechoic frequency response in their manual. The FX80 has a sad 5dB dip at the crossover point - the woofer is probably too big (8") and playing to low (-3dB at 35Hz) for the 2.4kHz crossover point - but the FX50 is remarkably flat. Add to this that they do the crossover in DSP and have a pretty diffraction free enclosure, and they're extremely good for that price (the FX50 is 170€/unit here).
The only thing preventing me from buying them, is that I've seen a few reviews talking about hiss and I lack more important measurements like directivity or CSD.

Hmm, I've never seen good directivity for coaxials with a similar mounting arrangement (a fixed tweeter mounted ahead of the midbass. The FPX7 wasn't good from SOS graphs, Presonus stuff (and their high-end Fulcrum Acoustics derivatives) had a lot of off-axis peaks and dips I would find unacceptable for home audio, KS Digital too. I'd rather take a high-Q on-axis dip but good directivity like the SEAS OEM coaxs with a good XO. Can't wait to see Kali IN-8 graphs.

This is really personal preference, but I also like hearing about relatively affordable active brands that still assemble their stuff in Europe (eg. KS, HEDD, Neumann) because it challenges the trend toward offshore production in the home audio passive market at the entry/mid-level (eg. Sonus Faber, B&W). In my head, if HEDD can make their own AMT driver in Germany, assemble a decent-measuring and well put-together (based on a teardown review) speaker with ICEPower and sophisticated DSP crossover in the same country and sell it for what they do, B&W etc have no excuse for charging more for an inferior passive produced offshore. Even though I fully acknowledge China can easily compete on state-of-the-art product quality.

 

[q3cpma]

Hmm, I've never seen good directivity for coaxials with a similar mounting arrangement (a fixed tweeter mounted ahead of the midbass. The FPX7 wasn't good from SOS graphs, Presonus stuff (and their high-end Fulcrum Acoustics derivatives) had a lot of off-axis peaks and dips I would find unacceptable for home audio, KS Digital too. I'd rather take a high-Q on-axis dip but good directivity like the SEAS OEM coaxs with a good XO. Can't wait to see Kali IN-8 graphs.

This is really personal preference, but I also like hearing about relatively affordable active brands that still assemble their stuff in Europe (eg. KS, HEDD, Neumann) because it challenges the trend toward offshore production in the home audio passive market at the entry/mid-level (eg. Sonus Faber, B&W). In my head, if HEDD can make their own AMT driver in Germany, assemble a decent-measuring and well put-together (based on a teardown review) speaker with ICEPower and sophisticated DSP crossover in the same country and sell it for what they do, B&W etc have no excuse for charging more for an inferior passive produced offshore. Even though I fully acknowledge China can easily compete on state-of-the-art product quality.

I agree with you. I've found that the real solution to the whole problem of good coaxial is indeed saving up for Genelec 8341As or 8351Bs. Guess they're worth it.