Really Expensive Speakers: Overrated For Mixing And Mastering

[Adis]

With respect, would you buy a car based on it's measurements alone? Wouldn't you want a test drive first? Would you chose a wife on how she measured before experiencing her? I certainly wouldn't entertain either scenario any more than I'd choose speakers based on their measurements.

Measurements may help in influencing a short list, but chosing speakers on measured performance in a location other than one's own home surely is folly.

Where I live you first mary a girl.
Then you can experience her as much as you want. May be a strange concept to you, but there you go.

Btw, measuring is experiencing. And not knowing what to do with measurements doesn't make one an expert, on the contrary!

 

[Purité Audio]

With respect, would you buy a car based on it's measurements alone? Wouldn't you want a test drive first? Would you chose a wife on how she measured before experiencing her? I certainly wouldn't entertain either scenario any more than I'd choose speakers based on their measurements.

Measurements may help in influencing a short list, but chosing speakers on measured performance in a location other than one's own home surely is folly.

As you suggest use measurements ( if they are available ) to weed out the poor performers, then listen in your own space to the ‘probables’.
IMHO a fine measuring speaker will always sound better ( than a poor measuring example) no matter the quality or otherwise of the room.
Again IME most rooms can be’ fixed’ with pretty minimal EQ.
Keith

 

[nqikz]

I've got 8030C's too - with a 7050C. Before that I had KRK's and tried out Eve and Kali's. Used DSP with all of them. But the Genelecs are really worth their price. Great size too - the Kali's were huge. I mix on them and use them as my desk speakers. I love them. Best sound investment I've made. They measure great

How are your mixes translating with the 8030c? I bet pretty great?

 

[G|force]

Regarding NS-10's- as has been said it was Bob Clearmountain that popularized their use in the 80's.

They are awful speakers that were originally marketed as inexpensive home bookshelves.
They are somewhat useful today for showing you what not to do in a mix.
Nowadays Bob uses Genelec and Neumann.

If I make a mix that sounds reasonably even on NS-10's, that mix will tend to have sucked out mids and overcooked bass and treble when played back on my calibrated 8341A's.

 

[nqikz]

Regarding NS-10's- as has been said it was Bob Clearmountain that popularized their use in the 80's.

They are awful speakers that were originally marketed as inexpensive home bookshelves.
They are somewhat useful today for showing you what not to do in a mix.
Nowadays Bob uses Genelec and Neumann.

If I make a mix that sounds reasonably even on NS-10's, that mix will tend to have sucked out mids and overcooked bass and treble when played back on my calibrated 8341A's.

So would you recommend me get an 8030c compared to NS10?

 

[Curvature]

So would you recommend me get an 8030c compared to NS10?

Oui.

Easily compare loudspeakers measurements

www.spinorama.org

 

[kyuu]

With respect, would you buy a car based on it's measurements alone? Wouldn't you want a test drive first?

Bad car analogies are a waste of time. Although if I was looking for a fast car, I wouldn't disregard measurements and go test drive a Pinto and a VW Bug to see if they were actually fast despite measured performance. Just as I wouldn't disregard measurements and listen to speakers that don't measure decently linear when I'm that's the sort of speaker I'm looking for.

 

[G|force]

So would you recommend me get an 8030c compared to NS10?

Absolutely.
Or 8010, 8020, 1029, 1030

 

[nqikz]

Absolutely.
Or 8010, 8020, 1029, 1030

My eyes are on the 8030c due to more low end. So you’re saying NS10s due to the hyped mids is not ideal to mix. A neutral speaker like the Genelec will let me balance mids more accurately.

 

[Curvature]

My eyes are on the 8030c due to more low end. So you’re saying NS10s due to the hyped mids is not ideal to mix. A neutral speaker like the Genelec will let me balance mids more accurately.

Not only does the NS10 have an uneven on-axis response (0 degrees, so when facing the speaker directly), the off-axis response (like it sounds, off to the side) both vertically and horizontally is uneven. This means that unless you keep your head in a very specific spot, you will hear different FR and your mixing decisions will change. It is sure to cause confusion.

Genelec, Neumann, and many others have consistent FR in a broad window around their speakers.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

So would you recommend me get an 8030c compared to NS10?

Virtually anything is better than a NS10. Horrible.

 

[nqikz]

Not only does the NS10 have an uneven on-axis response (0 degrees, so when facing the speaker directly), the off-axis response (like it sounds, off to the side) both vertically and horizontally is uneven. This means that unless you keep your head in a very specific spot, you will hear different FR and your mixing decisions will change. It is sure to cause confusion.

Genelec, Neumann, and many others have consistent FR in a broad window around their speakers.

https://gearspace.com/board/high-end/980082-love-hate-relationship-genelec.html?s=e7219d7d7f04742c5581eca8a1d98a8e

 

[Curvature]

https://gearspace.com/board/high-end/980082-love-hate-relationship-genelec.html?s=e7219d7d7f04742c5581eca8a1d98a8e

Are you asking me to comment on opinions found in 10 year old thread?

As I said above, the best thing I ever did was learn the hard science. It wasn't easy but very worth it. Toole's book, 4th edition just released. It's easier to read than the older ones and very much worth your time if the goal is not just a purchase decision but understanding how to navigate this crazed morass of money and opinion.

There is a lot to how sound works in a room and why speakers sound the way they do. Having a good sense of what's happening will help you disambiguate that complexity.

 

[nqikz]

Are you asking me to comment on opinions found in 10 year old thread?

As I said above, the best thing I ever did was learn the hard science. It wasn't easy but very worth it. Toole's book, 4th edition just released. It's easier to read than the older ones and very much worth your time if the goal is not just a purchase decision but understanding how to navigate this crazed morass of money and opinion.

There is a lot to how sound works in a room and why speakers sound the way they do. Having a good sense of what's happening will help you disambiguate that complexity.

Nope. It’s an interesting thread. But they are clearly clueless on what they are talking about. I think most people aren’t used to such an even and neutral sounding speaker like Genelec so they think it sounds too pleasing.

 

[ThatSoundsGood]

If you pay for a speaker with the price of $100-200, then yes, sure, you're not gonna get something great or very ideal for reliable mixing or mastering. They have ports, transient response is probably not that great, etc, etc. But when you spend more than $4000 (and that's probably pushing it) for a pair of speakers, I genuinely believe it's not that worth it. maybe unless it's in the Neumann category and you're just rich. Or maybe if your studio needs very big mains because you want to impress clients or whatever.

most mixing or mastering engineers don't need to break the bank to get a good mix or even be able to master. Engineering has its limits and nothing man-made is perfect, let's be honest. It can get really good, but there will never be "perfect". Objectively, perfect doesn't exist in the Audio world. Its all taste. Those super expensive Neumanns or Genelecs aren't perfect either, but they are very good.

My point is that for most mixing or mastering engineers, even if you have the money, it is unnecessary to spend a fortune on the best Genelecs, ATCs, and honestly, probably even a KH310.
I really think the price of all these speakers comes down to marketing, and sure, the additional benefits the monitors could provide, or how they were engineered. Like the KH310 for example, is a really great piece of gear ill admit that. but for most speakers its the marketing due to the brand name which makes the price so high. For example, why waste $8k on a pair of Amphion Two 18s? or $13K for ATCS? Those prices are nuts. The engineers you see using those Amphions speakers, they didn't buy them. They were given to them by those brands as a product for advertising. Not saying the speakers are bad and such, but the price is a massive stretch and you can get great results for less.

But what do these high end speakers do? Oh, right. They provide "excellent transient response and have an amazingly revealing midrange, ,etc, etc"? Cool. honestly, for most out there mixing, they would benefit and do just fine getting the NS10 which also provides an amazing transient response with a fantastic time domain, paired with their very revealing midrange and typically only cost like $600-800 in total with say, a solid amp like a crown, or a yamaha, etc. And the best part, is countless of mixes and grammies were won mixing with the NS10s. You could argue that it's not as revealing as an ATC or Amphion but so what? why spend thousands more on such speakers unless you're deep in the industry where you're given gear by loudspeaker companies like candy, or you're making like $3000 a mix or more, or maybe you're a gear obsessed audiophile that has a lot of money to spare.

So what I would do is just get a pair NS10s and pair them with a 7 or 8" monitors like say an EVE SC208 or a 207 for example, which has plenty of distortion free low end, with a crisp extended top end and you won't need to spend a fortune to get great results. So in the end, I believe there's a sweet-spot to audio engineering. You need to be smart. Room treatment, NS10s, Maybe a pair of Neumann KH120 or 150s, or some EVEs to check lows and highs, your ears, a pair of solid headphones, and just your overall EXPERIENCE. That's basically all you need to get a good mix or master. And a better mix will result in having less to do in mastering so it's a win-win.in the end.

Are you a mixing or mastering engineer?

 

[EasyC]

How are your mixes translating with the 8030c? I bet pretty great?

Yes. Very good - It's nearly full range with the sub, very good stereo image, and in nearfield they're a fantastic reference.

 

[Flaesh]

stick .. head in the sand

Here's an ostrich doing it:

 

[tmtomh]

No they don't unless the measurements are taken in the listening room they will be installed in. And even they, the speakers may not be to our liking.

Speakers that measure well in a well-prepared room may sound dire in our own listening rooms. Our ears are the ultimate (in fact, I'd suggest the only) true device for deciding on whether Speaker A sounds (to us) better than Speaker B. Who cares what the mic and OC screen may say if our ears don't like the sound the speakers deliver in our own rooms?

Your argument is based on the implicit assumption that a certain worse-measuring speaker can have nonlinearities and distortions that somehow magically compensate nearly perfectly for the acoustic problems in a certain room. That's simply not the case. A worse-measuring speaker might partially mask or reduce how noticeable a room's issues are. For example, a speaker that has attenuated treble and a major crossover dip between the midrange driver and tweeter might sound more "mellow" and less "zingy" in an excessively live room filled with highly reflective surfaces. But that doesn't mean this hypothetical crappy speaker is "the right speaker for your room." It means you need to do some basic treatment in your room, after which the better-measuring speaker will likely sound better than the crappy speaker did in your untreated room.

Not to mention, even if for the sake of discussion we were to agree with your strange scenario of "synergy" whereby an inferior-measuring, more nonlinear or distorted speaker could sound more subjectively pleasant in an untreated room with sonic issues, you'd still have to be out of your mind to use such a speaker, in such a room, for mixing purposes, which is the whole point of this thread.

I never understood the rationality of speaker choice for mixing and mastering, my common sense tells me should be the speaker/headphone/IEM that most people use.
My wife listens hours of music exclusively through her iPhone speakers, my daughter from her AirPod 2, and me... well, from 15 IEMs (being AirPod 2 the most used), 10 headphones, and different type of speakers (SVS, Revel, Genelec and Kef). So let's assume my household is a typical one, would not be better if mixing and mastering be done with an AirPod 2 and iPhone speaker?! haha, please somebody tell what is wrong with this rationality.

I can tell you what's wrong with your logic, pretty simply: nonlinearities and distortions are cumulative. Problems with the monitoring transducers lead to mistakes or bad choices or undetected problems in the final mix and mastering. So if you produce, mix, and master music using AirPods and iPhone speakers, it's going to sound worse than it would have if you'd mixed and mastered it on proper studio monitors and professional headphones - and it's going to sound worse than it otherwise would have on all devices, including iPhone speakers and AirPods.

Not to mention, what rational mixing engineer would ever mix on an iPhone speaker or AirPod 2's when they know that within 1-2 years at most, there will be new iPhones and AirPod 3's that have higher sonic fidelity than the ones they've mixed on? So you future-proof by mixing on the best pro gear you can afford or get access to, regardless of what your consumers are listening with.

Finally, @nqikz , if I might make an observation, with respect: you link to that 10 year-old Gearspace thread, and when @Curvature asks what you expect them to say about it, you reply that it's "interesting" but you also agree that "they don't know what they're talking about." Earlier in this thread, you took a converse position, expressing resistance to the idea that measurements are of significant usefulness in choosing good mixing speakers. And a few days prior you started the "Why do some people say Genelecs are hard to mix on" thread. It's great to try to figure this stuff out - but it seems like you're having trouble deciding who or what to believe, and in the process you're sort of ping-ponging back and forth between "these random people said this and that in a thread," and "yeah, they don't know what they're talking about," and then, "no, measurements are not where it's at, because NS10s must work well or else people wouldn't use them." It's very difficult to have a conversation with someone who appears to be unable to get a handle on the concerns or worries that are driving their indecision about what choice to make.

 

[gzost]

Wish I could give more than one like.

 

[nqikz]

Your argument is based on the implicit assumption that a certain worse-measuring speaker can have nonlinearities and distortions that somehow magically compensate nearly perfectly for the acoustic problems in a certain room. That's simply not the case. A worse-measuring speaker might partially mask or reduce how noticeable a room's issues are. For example, a speaker that has attenuated treble and a major crossover dip between the midrange driver and tweeter might sound more "mellow" and less "zingy" in an excessively live room filled with highly reflective surfaces. But that doesn't mean this hypothetical crappy speaker is "the right speaker for your room." It means you need to do some basic treatment in your room, after which the better-measuring speaker will likely sound better than the crappy speaker did in your untreated room.

Not to mention, even if for the sake of discussion we were to agree with your strange scenario of "synergy" whereby an inferior-measuring, more nonlinear or distorted speaker could sound more subjectively pleasant in an untreated room with sonic issues, you'd still have to be out of your mind to use such a speaker, in such a room, for mixing purposes, which is the whole point of this thread.



I can tell you what's wrong with your logic, pretty simply: nonlinearities and distortions are cumulative. Problems with the monitoring transducers lead to mistakes or bad choices or undetected problems in the final mix and mastering. So if you produce, mix, and master music using AirPods and iPhone speakers, it's going to sound worse than it would have if you'd mixed and mastered it on proper studio monitors and professional headphones - and it's going to sound worse than it otherwise would have on all devices, including iPhone speakers and AirPods.

Not to mention, what rational mixing engineer would ever mix on an iPhone speaker or AirPod 2's when they know that within 1-2 years at most, there will be new iPhones and AirPod 3's that have higher sonic fidelity than the ones they've mixed on? So you future-proof by mixing on the best pro gear you can afford or get access to, regardless of what your consumers are listening with.

Finally, @nqikz , if I might make an observation, with respect: you link to that 10 year-old Gearspace thread, and when @Curvature asks what you expect them to say about it, you reply that it's "interesting" but you also agree that "they don't know what they're talking about." Earlier in this thread, you took a converse position, expressing resistance to the idea that measurements are of significant usefulness in choosing good mixing speakers. And a few days prior you started the "Why do some people say Genelecs are hard to mix on" thread. It's great to try to figure this stuff out - but it seems like you're having trouble deciding who or what to believe, and in the process you're sort of ping-ponging back and forth between "these random people said this and that in a thread," and "yeah, they don't know what they're talking about," and then, "no, measurements are not where it's at, because NS10s must work well or else people wouldn't use them." It's very difficult to have a conversation with someone who appears to be unable to get a handle on the concerns or worries that are driving their indecision about what choice to make.

I have made up my mind. I trust the measurements and I think Genelec is good for sure no doubt. I just don't like binding myself completely to one idea only so I consider other opinions too and I kinda question things. Yes, that gear space thread is indeed interesting but it's true they don't know what they are talking about the more I educate myself on ASR. and it just is what it is, people have their own taste to speakers.