Really Expensive Speakers: Overrated For Mixing And Mastering

[nqikz]

JBL (from the past decade or so), Genelec, Neumann/KH, Kii, Dutch & Dutch, among others.

I’m between Genelec, Neumann, and EVE. Like an 8030c would be good enough for me right now but I’m not sure if it’s worth it due to the rear ports

 

[Hear Here]

I think the point to underscore is that price is not very correlated to performance, and if you really care about value for money, you absolutely need to pay attention to measurements. They are the only way to make a clear assessment of the gear.

Isn't what your ears tell you of much greater importance than what the microphone and PC scereen says you should like to hear?

 

[MAB]

I’m between Genelec, Neumann, and EVE. Like an 8030c would be good enough for me right now but I’m not sure if it’s worth it due to the rear ports

What is the rear port problem?

 

[mglobe]

If you pay for a speaker with the price of $100-200, then yes, sure, you're not gonna get something great or very ideal for reliable mixing or mastering. They have ports, transient response is probably not that great, etc, etc. But when you spend more than $4000 (and that's probably pushing it) for a pair of speakers, I genuinely believe it's not that worth it. maybe unless it's in the Neumann category and you're just rich. Or maybe if your studio needs very big mains because you want to impress clients or whatever.

most mixing or mastering engineers don't need to break the bank to get a good mix or even be able to master. Engineering has its limits and nothing man-made is perfect, let's be honest. It can get really good, but there will never be "perfect". Objectively, perfect doesn't exist in the Audio world. Its all taste. Those super expensive Neumanns or Genelecs aren't perfect either, but they are very good.

My point is that for most mixing or mastering engineers, even if you have the money, it is unnecessary to spend a fortune on the best Genelecs, ATCs, and honestly, probably even a KH310.
I really think the price of all these speakers comes down to marketing, and sure, the additional benefits the monitors could provide, or how they were engineered. Like the KH310 for example, is a really great piece of gear ill admit that. but for most speakers its the marketing due to the brand name which makes the price so high. For example, why waste $8k on a pair of Amphion Two 18s? or $13K for ATCS? Those prices are nuts. The engineers you see using those Amphions speakers, they didn't buy them. They were given to them by those brands as a product for advertising. Not saying the speakers are bad and such, but the price is a massive stretch and you can get great results for less.

But what do these high end speakers do? Oh, right. They provide "excellent transient response and have an amazingly revealing midrange, ,etc, etc"? Cool. honestly, for most out there mixing, they would benefit and do just fine getting the NS10 which also provides an amazing transient response with a fantastic time domain, paired with their very revealing midrange and typically only cost like $600-800 in total with say, a solid amp like a crown, or a yamaha, etc. And the best part, is countless of mixes and grammies were won mixing with the NS10s. You could argue that it's not as revealing as an ATC or Amphion but so what? why spend thousands more on such speakers unless you're deep in the industry where you're given gear by loudspeaker companies like candy, or you're making like $3000 a mix or more, or maybe you're a gear obsessed audiophile that has a lot of money to spare.

So what I would do is just get a pair NS10s and pair them with a 7 or 8" monitors like say an EVE SC208 or a 207 for example, which has plenty of distortion free low end, with a crisp extended top end and you won't need to spend a fortune to get great results. So in the end, I believe there's a sweet-spot to audio engineering. You need to be smart. Room treatment, NS10s, Maybe a pair of Neumann KH120 or 150s, or some EVEs to check lows and highs, your ears, a pair of solid headphones, and just your overall EXPERIENCE. That's basically all you need to get a good mix or master. And a better mix will result in having less to do in mastering so it's a win-win.in the end.

Do you do mixing and/or mastering for a living? Just trying to understand what knowledge you have wrt the specific needs professionals have? Having no experience in the studio, I have no knowledge whatsoever.

 

[MAB]

Isn't what your ears tell you of much greater importance than what the microphone and PC scereen says you should like to hear?

Acoustic measurements of speakers correlate to sound.
For example, resonances color the sound speakers make, microphones measure them even when our ears can't and the sound is masked, we see the resulting measurements on the screen of our computers. Thanks.
Most people can't even pick out their personal speakers among other different speakers in a blind test. Ears are that poor as measurement devices.

 

[Curvature]

Isn't what your ears tell you of much greater importance than what the microphone and PC scereen says you should like to hear?

I point you to my previous post in this thread:

The reason I learned all this stuff about measurements was that experience taught me that I couldn't stop making mistakes when relying solely on my hearing after cycling through different gear.

 

[kemmler3D]

I’m between Genelec, Neumann, and EVE. Like an 8030c would be good enough for me right now but I’m not sure if it’s worth it due to the rear ports

I have 8030s... really happy with them and the ports aren't a problem, but I do run them with subs... and I'm not really mixing anything FWIW.

 

[DVDdoug]

but I’m not sure if it’s worth it due to the rear ports

Front or rear porting doesn't make a difference unless you put it up against a wall where the port can't "breath". Often the port is on the back because there's no room on the front baffle.

The port location doesn't matter because bass has long wavelengths. 100Hz has a wavelength of about 10 feet.

 

[EasyC]

I’m between Genelec, Neumann, and EVE. Like an 8030c would be good enough for me right now but I’m not sure if it’s worth it due to the rear ports

I've got 8030C's too - with a 7050C. Before that I had KRK's and tried out Eve and Kali's. Used DSP with all of them. But the Genelecs are really worth their price. Great size too - the Kali's were huge. I mix on them and use them as my desk speakers. I love them. Best sound investment I've made. They measure great too.

 

[Dialectic]

I’m between Genelec, Neumann, and EVE. Like an 8030c would be good enough for me right now but I’m not sure if it’s worth it due to the rear ports

Respectfully, if I were you, I would learn more about loudspeakers before making a purchasing decision.

 

[Madlop26]

I never understood the rationality of speaker choice for mixing and mastering, my common sense tells me should be the speaker/headphone/IEM that most people use.
My wife listens hours of music exclusively through her iPhone speakers, my daughter from her AirPod 2, and me... well, from 15 IEMs (being AirPod 2 the most used), 10 headphones, and different type of speakers (SVS, Revel, Genelec and Kef). So let's assume my household is a typical one, would not be better if mixing and mastering be done with an AirPod 2 and iPhone speaker?! haha, please somebody tell what is wrong with this rationality.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I never understood the rationality of speaker choice for mixing and mastering, my common sense tells me should be the speaker/headphone/IEM that most people use.
My wife listens hours of music exclusively through her iPhone speakers, my daughter from her AirPod 2, and me... well, from 15 IEMs (being AirPod 2 the most used), 10 headphones, and different type of speakers (SVS, Revel, Genelec and Kef). So let's assume my household is a typical one, would not be better if mixing and mastering be done with an AirPod 2 and iPhone speaker?! haha, please somebody tell what is wrong with this rationality.

When you are recording a band in a studio you set instruments and microphones up. Then you "tune" the setup, eliminating mechanical buzzes, squeaks etc. achieving the best setup that suits the producer and the band. This requires quite a lot of tedious banging, tapping, strumming, "1-2, 1-2" stuff. The main monitors need to cope with wide frequencies and occasionally astonishing loud peaks. Many engineers then bounce between quality near-field and main monitors during recording and mixing.

 

[napfkuchen]

I never understood the rationality of speaker choice for mixing and mastering, my common sense tells me should be the speaker/headphone/IEM that most people use.

My Genelecs deliver so much detail, both in terms of spatial representation and FR. Sometimes you hear, for example, the accompanying vocals in the background, slightly offset from the singer, or there's an instrument very faintly, etc. These are details that sometimes disappear in the muddy playback of most inferior devices.
While I only use the speakers for listening to music, I can also imagine that they can be used very easily to position instruments in the mix. Certainly, a specialist can put almost all tools to good use with skill. But why work with inferior equipment when there are better options available, allowing you to enjoy the final product much more?

 

[Adis]

Yes, you can use the NS-10s for mixing
BUT
if you use them to make a mix that sounds good on them, that mix will only sound good on them - for you.
If you use them to make the mix sound similar to everything else you listen to on the NS-10s, you might be able to make a mix that sounds good for everyone else as well.

 

[kemmler3D]

I never understood the rationality of speaker choice for mixing and mastering, my common sense tells me should be the speaker/headphone/IEM that most people use.
My wife listens hours of music exclusively through her iPhone speakers, my daughter from her AirPod 2, and me... well, from 15 IEMs (being AirPod 2 the most used), 10 headphones, and different type of speakers (SVS, Revel, Genelec and Kef). So let's assume my household is a typical one, would not be better if mixing and mastering be done with an AirPod 2 and iPhone speaker?! haha, please somebody tell what is wrong with this rationality.

For the same reason movie editors don't work on cheap TVs.

The concept of mix translation means the mix should sound good and reasonably similar on any system. If your mix doesn't translate it's not really a good mix.

Home systems have certain specific limitations on what you can hear through them. If you use such a system to mix, it will sound perfect on that system, but you cannot account for the limitations of any other system.

Speakers that don't have limitations like home systems let your hear "everything" so you can create a mix that sounds good "everywhere". Part of this can be simulating the limits of lesser speakers on better speakers.

NS10s are like general purpose bad speakers that are also supposedly just good enough to mix on, and so are said to translate well to most home systems, but this is controversial.

 

[kyuu]

I never understood the rationality of speaker choice for mixing and mastering, my common sense tells me should be the speaker/headphone/IEM that most people use.

Well, like most ideas that people think are "common sense" -- meaning the idea is not based on any actual evidence or even critical thinking -- that's wrong.

Even if we accept your premise that "most people" are using AirPods and iPhone speakers (based on nothing except what the people in your immediate circle are using, no less), that means that we should ignore every other possible setup and deal exclusively with the limitations of just the most popular devices? Absurd.

 

[Hear Here]

Acoustic measurements of speakers correlate to sound.

No they don't unless the measurements are taken in the listening room they will be installed in. And even they, the speakers may not be to our liking.

For example, resonances color the sound speakers make, microphones measure them even when our ears can't and the sound is masked, we see the resulting measurements on the screen of our computers. Thanks.

That really is irrelevent to how much enjoyment we may get from a pair of speakers. Speakers that measure well in a well-prepared room may sound dire in our own listening rooms. Our ears are the ultimate (in fact, I'd suggest the only) true device for deciding on whether Speaker A sounds (to us) better than Speaker B. Who cares what the mic and OC screen may say if our ears don't like the sound the speakers deliver in our own rooms? I've been there - bought excellent measuring speakers (designed as recording studio monitors) and been so disappointed I've sold them on within months.

Anyone chosing their speakers on the basis of measurements taken in someone else's studio or home is very likely to buy the wromg speakers for his own room.

He must arrange a home demo after lots of research into what TYPE of speaker may best suit his room and cope with the features of that room, then draw up a short list of contenders and arrange home demos. There is no other way of chosing best speakers for your own room.

 

[kyuu]

No they don't unless the measurements are taken in the listening room they will be installed in.

Yeah, they do. You can stick your head in the sand and do whatever you like, but the research does not agree with you. Also, for your anecdote that you hated a speaker that measured well, I can find countless threads here with anecdotes to the contrary.

 

[Hear Here]

Yeah, they do. You can stick your head in the sand and do whatever you like, but the research does not agree with you. Also, for your anecdote that you hated a speaker that measured well, I can find countless threads here with anecdotes to the contrary.

With respect, would you buy a car based on it's measurements alone? Wouldn't you want a test drive first? Would you chose a wife on how she measured before experiencing her? I certainly wouldn't entertain either scenario any more than I'd choose speakers based on their measurements.

Measurements may help in influencing a short list, but chosing speakers on measured performance in a location other than one's own home surely is folly.

 

[MAB]

No they don't unless the measurements are taken in the listening room they will be installed in. And even they, the speakers may not be to our liking.

It's OK. I measured my room too. I know that for sure. Amazing in this day people remain ignorant of their own room.