Really Expensive Speakers: Overrated For Mixing And Mastering

[nqikz]

Nice manifesto. You went from "I’m not the best at reading measurements" to full anti-measurement expert in a weekend.

You are right, it's not necessary to spend a fortune to get good and accurate sound. For many of us the used price of NS-10 are quite off-putting. They myth of it's unique transient response isn't mythological, it's a bog-simple sealed woofer with limited bass extension who's response (transient or otherwise) matched by many other speakers. And many of the other mysteries like tissue paper over the tweeter are indeed mysterious due to the response errors originating in the woofer.

So yes, an introductory doesn't have to be expensive, in fact probably half the cost of a used pair of NS-10.

I’m not anti measurement. NS10s may not measure amazingly but they work, and they translate. Otherwise nobody would be using them.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

I’m not anti measurement. NS10s may not measure amazingly but they work, and they translate. Otherwise nobody would be using them.

Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[wwenze]

NS10 is discontinued, but we still have ATC (less defective) and PMC (more criminal).

 

[RexrothPigeon]

re: NS10, this is a fun read

The Yamaha NS10 Story

Love or hate the Yamaha NS10, this unassuming little speaker has found a place in the studios of many of the world's top producers. We trace its history, and investigate why a monitor whose sound has been described as "horrible" became an industry standard.

www.soundonsound.com

 

[Flaesh]

That's basically all you need to get a good mix or master.

Can we hear some of your mixes? I'd also be interested in hearing the same song before and after mastering.
I'm not a sound engineer or a reviewer, just a music consumer, a home stereo listener.

 

[SHB]

Wow, this thread has a lot of generalities being thrown around.

Here is one indisputable fact: any world class studio spends a lot more than $4000 on their main monitors. That you don’t see any value in that return on investment, quite frankly, is of no importance.

One other thing that you don’t seem to be taking into account is that none of the speakers that you can buy for $4000 per pair will provide you with a system that goes all the way down to 20 Hz.

If you want a true monitoring system that gives you great dynamic range and covers all of the audible frequencies that a human can hear with low distortion, you’re going to have to spend a lot more than $4K.

 

[Curvature]

Wow, this thread has a lot of generalities being thrown around.

Here is one indisputable fact: any world class studio spends a lot more than $4000 on their main monitors. That you don’t see any value in that return on investment, quite frankly, is of no importance.

One other thing that you don’t seem to be taking into account is that none of the speakers that you can buy for $4000 per pair will provide you with a system that goes all the way down to 20 Hz.

If you want a true monitoring system that gives you great dynamic range and covers all of the audible frequencies that a human can hear with low distortion, you’re going to have to spend a lot more than $4K.

This is all true, but you can make really good music under a decent budget.

I think the point to underscore is that price is not very correlated to performance, and if you really care about value for money, you absolutely need to pay attention to measurements. They are the only way to make a clear assessment of the gear.

 

[nqikz]

Main monitors are capable of very high peak levels across the entire frequency domain and with very low distortion and minimal compression. It's impossible to achieve this cheaply.

Wow, this thread has a lot of generalities being thrown around.

Here is one indisputable fact: any world class studio spends a lot more than $4000 on their main monitors. That you don’t see any value in that return on investment, quite frankly, is of no importance.

One other thing that you don’t seem to be taking into account is that none of the speakers that you can buy for $4000 per pair will provide you with a system that goes all the way down to 20 Hz.

If you want a true monitoring system that gives you great dynamic range and covers all of the audible frequencies that a human can hear with low distortion, you’re going to have to spend a lot more than $4K.

i agree if you have a so called “world class” studio then yes obviously. But my point is for most home studios you don’t need to go overkill to get a good result unless you like gear then it’s fine do what you desire.

 

[nqikz]

NS10 is discontinued, but we still have ATC (less defective) and PMC (more criminal).

PMC and ATC are bad now too? Is that why pros get a good mix out of them and have won Grammies on those?

 

[Purité Audio]

Loudspeakers are transducers and thus entirely characterised by their measurements, I can’t see how a transparent loudspeaker could be anything but a benefit.
Keith

 

[MAB]

PMC and ATC are bad now too? Is that why pros get a good mix out of them and have won Grammies on those? I swear this forum only looks at the measurements and rely on them like a religion. if the measurements aren’t perfect then people just disregard the gear. For mixing engineers, if it sounds good to them and translates well, that’s it.

Music production is incredibly inconsistent. Much of the end product is poor. Performing artists win Grammys despite this.
If it had some consistency, maybe your appeal would hold. But it doesn't.

Speakers sound like they measure. Frequency response, on- and off-axis behavior. Resonances.
The PMC are incredibly odd sounding speakers. They are also incredibly expensive. ATC also incredibly expensive.

On one point I agree, speakers for your beginning home studio don't need to be expensive. Like a pair of Genelec 8010A, about the same price as a pair of NS-10 used, amps included. There are many other good options.

 

[Dialectic]

PMC and ATC are bad now too? Is that why pros get a good mix out of them and have won Grammies on those? I swear this forum only looks at the measurements and rely on them like a religion. if the measurements aren’t perfect then people just disregard the gear. For mixing engineers, if it sounds good to them and translates well, that’s it.

ATCs are not great, and PMC products are trash. Both suffer from messy directivity, and PMCs are not even flat on axis.

We don't disregard the gear; we use measurements to corroborate subjective impressions. Ultimately, most ASR contributors place more stock in measurements than they do in subjective impressions on the ground that it is easy to make mistakes when evaluating equipment with one's ears alone.

Do most Grammy-winning albums sound good? Let's be honest - the answer is no.

 

[nqikz]

ATCs are not great, and PMC products are trash. Both suffer from messy directivity, and PMCs are not even flat on axis.

We don't disregard the gear; we use measurements to corroborate subjective impressions. Ultimately, most ASR contributors place more stock in measurements than they do in subjective impressions on the ground that it is easy to make mistakes when evaluating equipment with one's ears alone.

ATCs are not great, and PMC products are trash. Both suffer from messy directivity, and PMCs are not even flat on axis.

We don't disregard the gear; we use measurements to corroborate subjective impressions. Ultimately, most ASR contributors place more stock in measurements than they do in subjective impressions on the ground that it is easy to make mistakes when evaluating equipment with one's ears alone.

Do most Grammy-winning albums sound good? Let's be honest - the answer is no.

Ok then fair enough. I guess it sort of proves that more expensive=/= good in the audio world. Even with NS10s you can say that are not great and barefoots too, but there’s some underground songs/albums that aren’t as popular, that 2 were mixed on them and they sound amazing.

 

[Dialectic]

Ok then fair enough. I guess it sort of proves that more expensive=/= good in the audio world. Even with NS10s you can say that are not great and barefoots too but some amazing sound albums were mixed on these.

NS10s are not great and outrageously overpriced now because of their mysterious aura.

Barefoots are also not great.

There are many well-engineered options at a range of prices.

 

[nqikz]

NS10s are not great and outrageously overpriced now because of their mysterious aura.

Barefoots are also not great.

There are many well-engineered options at a range of prices.

Can you name a few?

 

[kemmler3D]

A Few runners have competed at the professional level barefoot, should we all just forget about shoes...? Daft Punk made Homework on a boombox, does this mean even NS10s are overkill and too fussy? Why not just mix on airpods since that's what everyone listens with anyway...?

 

[Purité Audio]

Can you name a few?

I would look at ‘measurement led’ designs, Genelec, Neumann etc rather than marketing/myth based.
Keith

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I've not seen measurements of the very largest soffit-mounted main monitors.

 

[Flaesh]

A simple home stereo system plays 20 Hz at 0 dB. And I don't turn it up louder than 110 dB. I'd like recordings to have a reasonable dynamic range, and for the low end not to be cut off at 40-50 Hz.
Reading about optimization for a talking alarm clock or a USB toothbrush is a bit sad.

https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/tom-danleys-mic-recordings/

 

[Dialectic]

Can you name a few?

JBL (from the past decade or so), Genelec, Neumann/KH, Kii, Dutch & Dutch, among others.