Really Expensive Speakers: Overrated For Mixing And Mastering

[Palmer]

You don't understand the difference between end-to-end analogue and end-to-end digital with compression. Compression significantly adds to the delay.

When terrestrial TV and radio was analogue, producers could switch between the signal leaving the console and "check receivers" picking up a feed from the same transmitter as the audience - in order to detect issues. Satellite distribution, digital radio, digital TV and (even worse) Internet distribution make this impossible.

If you look at my sig, you might notice I have some expertise in these field. For example when designing very large fiber networks for media use, we assumed 1ms round-trip latency for a light pulse per 100km of fibre. If you assume a European country with 1000km the longest distance, the optical delay, one way, is approximately 5ms. You are unable to perceive this as a delay. Radio frequency transmission is even faster.

So, yet again let me state: the audience on terrestrial analogue broadcasting heard the sound of the glockenspiel a few milliseconds after it was struck (assuming close micing)

I was working as a sub contractor on the 2000 BeeGees concert, the "Millenium Concert" or BG2K providing a feed of the gig - to ABC and other networks.
So I can speak from experience that, at least then, there was no perceptible delay in the transmission - since we watched on a TV the coverage, in a room backstage -
to check over the air, what we were sending out. Would have noticed. Met Maurice Gibb quite often later on, super nice guy. Miss him.

Cheers

 

[Doodski]

I was working as a sub contractor on the 2000 BeeGees concert, the "Millenium Concert" or BG2K providing a feed of the gig - to ABC and other networks.
So I can speak from experience that, at least then, there was no perceptible delay in the transmission - since we watched on a TV the coverage, in a room backstage -
to check over the air, what we were sending out. Would have noticed. Met Maurice Gibb quite often later on, super nice guy. Miss him.

Cheers

I have a propensity for attracting musicians and vice versa. I can talk the talk about life with them, walk the walk, feel the feel, generally understand and appreciate their musician stuff and I support it, they sense that, feel safe, secure and accept me. So I have had many musician friends from the lowly starving record store worker that plays guitar nights to the university degree classically trained professional classical musician with a life long career playing their instrument and being in positions of high level government arts programs positions etc. It's been a bit of a ride. They all are simply basic humans that just want to play tunes and maybe make some money doing that. Not one of them expected to get rich and wealthy. They all said in simple English, "If it happens it happens." All of them when it gets right down to it where nice people, cared about others and what was really cool is they all have an effective method of understanding, analyzing, structuring and organizing stuff. That does not mean they are great at all aspects of life but musicians have a method they acquired from the process of learning their arts/instrument(s) and that method is easily applied to all matters of life. I read recognized that skill set long ago and then I was reading a university research study about it and it stated that exactly. Musicians have a organized structured flowchart in their heads.

 

[pablolie]

....
If you look at my sig, you might notice I have some expertise in these field. For example when designing very large fiber networks for media use, we assumed 1ms round-trip latency for a light pulse per 100km of fibre. If you assume a European country with 1000km the longest distance, the optical delay, one way, is approximately 5ms. You are unable to perceive this as a delay. Radio frequency transmission is even faster.

And I design and configure IP networks, and while we're at it I have a master's degree in electrical engineering and telecommunications, and have three patents on voice over IP networks. I shouldn't repeat that it was me who mentioned the delay in long distance signal propagation. And you're omitting the huge element the Akamai (et al) content cache stuff does there [1]. I was once in Levi's stadium (49ers yeay! :-D) and checked and there was a solid 20sec delay between the ESPN transmission and the live stadium [2]. At the end of the day it is irrelevant - I am sure one can attempt to greatly reduce the delay, but then one also may run the risk of buffer starvation and hence dropouts... which are not unknown to happen and we've all experienced.

Incidentally, as we sit on our preferred lounge chair listening to our systems, if we sit 9ft away we incur a delay of ~10ms... and it does not matter an ounce.

[1] https://www.akamai.com/blog/develop...uting-for-low-latency-live-streaming-services

[2] That would not be only because of protocols/buffering, it is also in order to have enough stuff to cut something out if something really horrid happens [think Janet Jackson's Superbowl halftime show :-D] that could traumatize an audience and lead to a lawsuit, I was told.

PS: This is also a very good LinkedIn post stating the reasons why several seconds of delay are pretty standard in transmitting live events over IP networks (which is now the global standard, pretty much), and mentions the 5-10sec Akamai latency that practically guarantees smooth delivery: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/when-latency-matters-my-latest-tests-low-latency-video-luca-moglia/

 

[Doodski]

And I design and configure networks, and while we're at it I have a master's degree in electrical engineering and telecommunications, and have three patents on voice over IP networks. I shouldn't repeat that it was me who mentioned the delay in long distance signal propagation. And you're omitting the huge element the Akamai at al content cache stuff does there [1]. I was once in Levi's stadium (49ers yeay! :-D) and checked and there was a solid 20sec delay between the ESPN transmission and the live stadium. At the end of the day it is irrelevant - I am sure one can attempt to greatly reduce the delay, but then one also may run the risk of buffer starvation and hence dropouts... which are not unknown to happen and we've all experienced.

Incidentally, as we sit on our preferred lounge chair listening to our systems, if we sit 9ft away we incur a delay of ~10ms... and it does not matter an ounce.

[1] https://www.akamai.com/blog/develop...uting-for-low-latency-live-streaming-services

When I studied the fundamentals of physics pertaining to electron flow studies I was filled with the excitement of participating in this amazing stuff and I was overjoyed with the amazement at the people that made all of this possible over the hundreds of years to date. I really realized just how much I was not even aware of that I could not even imagine existed before some instructors decided they where going to shove a ton of information into my brain and better me. ... and so I really wonder just what a guy like you or others with such in depth studies know.

 

[pablolie]

I was working as a sub contractor on the 2000 BeeGees concert, the "Millenium Concert" or BG2K providing a feed of the gig - to ABC and other networks.
So I can speak from experience that, at least then, there was no perceptible delay in the transmission - since we watched on a TV the coverage, in a room backstage -
to check over the air, what we were sending out. Would have noticed. Met Maurice Gibb quite often later on, super nice guy. Miss him.
...

Technology has changed a lot since then, though. There were still many analog aspects to such stuff back then - now it's entirely digital and all buffered. That allows broadcasters to do many things they couldn't do with analog (and saves them a lot of money)... and impacts other aspects... no such thing as a free lunch. Digital simplifies many things and reduces cost (back then you had separate -and very large and costly- TV, phone, data, etc etc networks)...

 

[Palmer]

I have a propensity for attracting musicians and vice versa. I can talk the talk about life with them, walk the walk, feel the feel, generally understand and appreciate their musician stuff and I support it, they sense that, feel safe, secure and accept me. So I have had many musician friends from the lowly starving record store worker that plays guitar nights to the university degree classically trained professional classical musician with a life long career playing their instrument and being in positions of high level government arts programs positions etc. It's been a bit of a ride. They all are simply basic humans that just want to play tunes and maybe make some money doing that. Not one of them expected to get rich and wealthy. They all said in simple English, "If it happens it happens." All of them when it gets right down to it where nice people, cared about others and what was really cool is they all have an effective method of understanding, analyzing, structuring and organizing stuff. That does not mean they are great at all aspects of life but musicians have a method they acquired from the process of learning their arts/instrument(s) and that method is easily applied to all matters of life. I read recognized that skill set long ago and then I was reading a university research study about it and it stated that exactly. Musicians have a organized structured flowchart in their heads.

It takes all kinds. Can't talk about my experiences, private ... but some were nicer than others. Down to earth, even. Slightly delayed, sometimes.

 

[pablolie]

I asked our video infrastructure expert because I was genuinely curious and never claim I know everything (and any complex enough topic will expose that nobody does :-D), and she got me the latency data that is typical for some live content providers:

• Apple MLS streams are ~8–12s
• Amazon Prime TNF is ~25–30s
• ESPN / Disney / Hulu Live are ~30–50s
• YouTube TV: often 25–55s depending on device

There most certainly are use cases that require the immediacy and minimal latency that is quite normal in analog (well, in the end everything is analog when it goes down to the physical) where life-critical or key financial stuff goes down. Big, hyper-performance trading networks demand single-digit microsecond latencies - that's why you can't beat the big players :-D ... and of course they have the pockets to have dedicated networks for that. Military apps or upcoming remote surgery probably aren't tolerant of several seconds in delay.

And I should note I mean this all very respectfully to everybody involved in the discussion, the critical need to find ways to minimize latency as much as possible is very real and important. It's ultimately all about $ and the convenience and lower cost of digital. We often live with the misperception that everything digital is superior, but the Mona Lisa wouldn't be as enjoyable if it was just presented in 0s and 1s.

 

[kyuu]

We often live with the misperception that everything digital is superior, but the Mona Lisa wouldn't be as enjoyable if it was just presented in 0s and 1s.

What does this even mean. I mean yes, our perception systems can't take in a raw digital stream, if that's what you're getting at.

 

[pablolie]

What does this even mean. I mean yes, our perception systems can't take in a raw digital stream, if that's what you're getting at.

I alluded to it repeatedly: digital is not "better", it is however cheaper, more flexible and adaptable and universal. You just need *one* network for most use cases - IP networks carry pretty much everything: entertainment, voice, video, data, gaming etc etc. But it relies on analog technology in critical areas, and therefore isn't able to do *everything*.

 

[Ktacos]

Can we not do silly painting analogies and what not... I left other forums because of that stuff.

 

[pablolie]

Can we not do silly painting analogies and what not... I left other forums because of that stuff.

Apologies then - it was an off-topic exchange anyhow, and you gentlemen seem to have missed the smiley. It was *not* an analogy, it was a joke.