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Reality Is Overrated When It Comes to Recordings (Article from music Engineer/Producer)

Ricardus

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It happens all the time, even in genre's where you don't expect it. This Belgian punk classic is not sung by the artist (Plastic Bertrand), but by his producer Lou Deprijck (2man sound), and the artist was only involved after the total production was done. Lou did not want to perform it himself because he was known for cheesy disco and latin hits with his 2man sound and would not been taken serious by the punks. Later on he also made a lot of 2tone ska btw.

Fine. If the people who sang it don't actually want to be recognized for it, cool.

But in the case of Milli Vanilli it didn't matter to the world one way or another who the F*CK Milli or Vanilli were. Just give the singers a weird haircut and some funky clothes and put them in front of the cameras.

I remember having this same discussion on my BBS in the 80s. Full circle.
 

Blumlein 88

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One thing about those One mic recordings or any crossed figure 8 pair, they actually are best played back over a system with speakers which are on an arc of 90 degrees from the listening position. Not the more common 60 degrees. They can image pretty realistically when done this way. In some tests of imaging done many years ago this was the most accurate stereo miking method. They still work pretty well with narrower spacing of your playback speakers or over headphones. But with narrow speakers you can get sort of a diminished stereo effect. Of course this can make it work well with a Blumlein pair flanked by omnis for certain kinds of settings. Or let you blend in solo miking without it being noticeable this is what you did.
 

Soundmixer

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Which was baffling to me. If you're going to manufacture stars by putting them on MTV 1000 times a day, why not manufacture them out of the guys who CAN sing, and who actually DID sing on the record? Right? Just put them in the damn video.
The people who can actually sing (and were doing the singing) were deemed not camera-worthy according to the powers that be.

To pay my way through film school, I worked as a sound mixer and house keyboard player for a couple of studios. I cannot tell you how many times I heard a background singer (or singers) who could outsing the lead vocalist even when they were hoarse.

You don't have to manufacture a star, you have to manufacture an image for MTV. A true star needs no manufacturing.
 

Soundmixer

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Fine. If the people who sang it don't actually want to be recognized for it, cool.
That is not quite how this worked. A good singer was paid for their "performance" in the studio - much like a background singer would. They are paid a union wage to sing tracks for the artists the studio or producer wants to promote. They often had to sign NDAs and didn't know what artist they were singing for in some cases.
But in the case of Milli Vanilli it didn't matter to the world one way or another who the F*CK Milli or Vanilli were. Just give the singers a weird haircut and some funky clothes and put them in front of the cameras.
Perhaps to you, their haircuts were weird and their clothes funky. Not to those folks that watch MTV on a daily basis. When it comes to looks and manufactured image, they were par for the course at the time
 

clearnfc

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However, whether you can hear the bowing of strings and other subtle sounds depends highly on where you sit. Sit in the front few rows, and this can certainly be heard. The further you move away, those sounds are lost in the reverberation of the space - which is exactly why you place microphones close to the performers, and not at listening positions.

Good, i am glad someone else also understand what you hear in a live performance is highly dependent on where you sit!!

Btw, i am also glad you mention microphones too!! The sound you hear during a "live" performance actually comes from speakers in the concert hall, esp. those sitting at the mid/back rows!
 
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clearnfc

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Actually, this is not quite right. Lip sync is usually used because the performer is doing a lot of movement while trying to sing. Most "performers" can't sing very well live, let alone sing AND move at the same time. That is why lip sync is used. Backing tracks are used when a performer (or real singer) doesn't have live background vocals. Pop music is notorious for using lip sync for live performances of the lead vocal, but may have real background singers - so no need for backing tracks. Everything depends on the difficulty of the production itself, and/or the skills of the talent.

Oops... Yes, i have to say lip sync is rather common in "live" concerts. Which reinforce the point that "live" isnt exactly live.
 

clearnfc

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Some of the better singers and musicians I have worked with think otherwise.

Perhaps you can try asking the singers to sing without a microphone. See if the singer is louder or the band is louder...

Under normal circumstances, the sound from the instruments will drown out the vocals. This is why audio equipment is needed to amplify the voice. However, one would be hearing voice from the speakers instead.
 

theREALdotnet

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Which was baffling to me. If you're going to manufacture stars by putting them on MTV 1000 times a day, why not manufacture them out of the guys who CAN sing, and who actually DID sing on the record? Right? Just put them in the damn video.

Milli Vanilli (like Boney M.) were a studio creation by Frank Farian. After he had some success selling records Farian hired dancers for stage performances.

But lip syncing wasn’t just for “fake” bands:

 

goat76

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It sounds very good. Expecting a sort of mono sound with no 3D, it is obviously not a single mono mic, rather a stereo mic in one unit, here they use a stereo ribbon mic, there is a 2min clip that explains how, helpful if you start out being ignorant like me.
I’m aware of how it works, he uses a stereo microphone with two ribbon capsules built-in in with a Blumlein configuration. All ribbon microphones have the pickup pattern of figure 8 and in a Blumlein configuration the two capsules are crossed like in the picture below.
1651216129097.png


In the recordings both sides of the two capsules are used. The reason the musicians are standing around the stereo microphone and not all of them in front of the microphone is simply because the physical space doesn't allow them to, the pickup pattern of the microphone and the distance needed for the different sound sources (to not sound too distant) is solved that way.



Even if this microphone technique is the best way for capturing everything from one single point in the room, the downsides are also obvious:

• You can't capture a full band in front of you like you hear it “live”. All the different sound sources need to be placed around the microphone instead of the natural band setup.
• The usual problem with a too distant sound if the source is too far away from the microphone.
• The sound sources need to be at or around the same hight of the microphone, otherwise, they will be outside the pickup pattern.
• If a sound source like a vocalist moves a little bit outside his place the sound of his voice will “ping pong” from one microphone capsule to the other (the sound suddenly moves from center to the side in the stereo field).
• A multi-instrument like a drum set will probably suffer the most from a single point recording.
 

Robin L

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I’m aware of how it works, he uses a stereo microphone with two ribbon capsules built-in in with a Blumlein configuration. All ribbon microphones have the pickup pattern of figure 8 and in a Blumlein configuration the two capsules are crossed like in the picture below.
View attachment 203288

In the recordings both sides of the two capsules are used. The reason the musicians are standing around the stereo microphone and not all of them in front of the microphone is simply because the physical space doesn't allow them to, the pickup pattern of the microphone and the distance needed for the different sound sources (to not sound too distant) is solved that way.



Even if this microphone technique is the best way for capturing everything from one single point in the room, the downsides are also obvious:

• You can't capture a full band in front of you like you hear it “live”. All the different sound sources need to be placed around the microphone instead of the natural band setup.
• The usual problem with a too distant sound if the source is too far away from the microphone.
• The sound sources need to be at or around the same hight of the microphone, otherwise, they will be outside the pickup pattern.
• If a sound source like a vocalist moves a little bit outside his place the sound of his voice will “ping pong” from one microphone capsule to the other (the sound suddenly moves from center to the side in the stereo field).
• A multi-instrument like a drum set will probably suffer the most from a single point recording.
I like ORTF. A fairly normal perspective, works on both headphones and speakers, good stereo imaging. Only real downside is a lack of most stuff below 70hz or so. Supplemental omnis can help. I remember finding the stereo imaging of MS recordings "flat", though the ability to "dial in" the direct/reflected sound for the right balance is cool. I think some of Thomas Beecham's recordings in the early stereo era were recorded with a Blumlein configuration. Perspectives [of a full symphony orchestra] were distant, as I recall.
 

Ricardus

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The people who can actually sing (and were doing the singing) were deemed not camera-worthy according to the powers that be.

They must not have looked at the Milli Vanilli actors in the daylight then.

To pay my way through film school, I worked as a sound mixer and house keyboard player for a couple of studios. I cannot tell you how many times I heard a background singer (or singers) who could outsing the lead vocalist even when they were hoarse.

You don't have to manufacture a star, you have to manufacture an image for MTV. A true star needs no manufacturing.
Meh. It's just like anything else. The idea that a meritocracy exists is just myth.
 

Ricardus

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All ribbon microphones have the pickup pattern of figure 8 and in a Blumlein configuration the two capsules are crossed like in the picture below.
Jusy as an FYI, not all ribbon mics are figure-8. Classically an overwhelming majority of them were, and now there are plenty that aren't.

I have a pair of Beyer M360s for example that are cardioid. These came out in 1965.
 

Ricardus

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That is not quite how this worked. A good singer was paid for their "performance" in the studio - much like a background singer would. They are paid a union wage to sing tracks for the artists the studio or producer wants to promote. They often had to sign NDAs and didn't know what artist they were singing for in some cases.
It can work any way the legal eagles WANTED it to work. They were FAKING and LYING. It was all made up. So just make it up a different way.

Perhaps to you, their haircuts were weird and their clothes funky. Not to those folks that watch MTV on a daily basis. When it comes to looks and manufactured image, they were par for the course at the time
Yes. Thank you. I was there.
 

goat76

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Jusy as an FYI, not all ribbon mics are figure-8. Classically an overwhelming majority of them were, and now there are plenty that aren't.

I have a pair of Beyer M360s for example that are cardioid. These came out in 1965.
I thought I would get away with that generalization... :)
 

Ricardus

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I thought I would get away with that generalization... :)
I am very happy there are cardioid offerings these days from many manufacturers. Sometimes figure-8 gets in the way when you don't want/need it.
 

Blumlein 88

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I thought I would get away with that generalization... :)
Me too. Like literally 99% of ribbon microphones are figure 8. So much so I would only note other patterns are possible if talking about one of the few that aren't like the Beyer 160.
 

Ricardus

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Me too. Like literally 99% of ribbon microphones are figure 8. So much so I would only note other patterns are possible if talking about one of the few that aren't like the Beyer 160.
Even classic RCA 77s could do 3 patterns.
 

Kvalsvoll

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f a sound source like a vocalist moves a little bit outside his place the sound of his voice will “ping pong” from one microphone capsule to the other (the sound suddenly moves from center to the side in the stereo field).
And this can be heard hen the singer moves around close to the mic, both tonality (frequency response) and location of the image changes.
 

Blumlein 88

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Even classic RCA 77s could do 3 patterns.
Yes, and I can find other examples. But do we need to go down this route? For every example you have there will be 10 other examples of a ribbon that is simply a figure 8 pattern. Unless there are baffles etc the natural pattern for a ribbon is figure 8. The RCA 77 has those other patterns because it has a set of rotating baffles and an acoustical labyrinth to alter the natural pattern. Early microphones made cardioids by combining an omni and ribbon inside the housing which gives you a cardioid result. They aren't made that way anymore. So unless it is an unusual example to be specified ribbons are figure 8's.
 
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Ricardus

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Yes, and I can find other examples. But do we need to go down this route? For every example you have there will be 10 other examples of a ribbon that is simply a figure 8 pattern. Unless there are baffles etc the natural pattern for a ribbon is figure 8. The RCA 77 has those other patterns because it has a set of rotating baffles and an acoustical labyrinth to alter the natural pattern. Early microphones made cardioids by combining an omni and ribbon inside the housing which gives you a cardioid result. They aren't made that way anymore. So unless it is an unusual example to be specified ribbons are figure 8's.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes, so you are now known as DARTH BLUMLEIN.
 
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