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Realistic Sounding Speakers

noobie1

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#21
I don't know, but if your listening room isn't larger than normal one might get much the same sound in the Magic S5. That is within your budget of $40k just barely. Find a pre-owned pair and it would be within your budget.

I also might suggest listening to some of the upper Revel models like various of the Ultima series. These are within your budget.

I also agree that swimming in sound is not a common expression and could mean a number of things. If you could describe in other terms what you liked or as a counterpoint examples of what isn't to your liking it might make more sense to us.

My guess is you meant listening to music the speakers seemed to disappear leaving what sounded like real musicians in the room and not speakers shouting sound at you from a hifi.
It's hard to describe in objective terms. The impression I had was that the music lingered in the room instead of dissipating quickly. The music seemed to fill every cubic inch of the room equally well. It was as if the sweet spot was the whole room.

As a counterexample, I spent some time listening to Wilson Alexia and it didn't do it for me even when played high volumes. I listened to Revel Salon 2 and that didn't do it either. Speakers that did better include Paradigm H9's and German Physyks Borderland MK IV. These had maybe 80% of the "swimming" quality as the S7.
 

noobie1

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#22
As Blumlein88, Dennis, is suggesting, you are after the sensation of the music "washing over you", in the same way as happens when listening to live musicians - it's a powerful sensation, with no downsides. Unfortunately, most hifi setups are insufficiently competent to achieve this - if you turn up the volume to deliver the necessary SPLs then all the shortcomings of the playback are far too obvious; you're unable to relax into the impact of the music, there is too much tensing of the body trying to cope with the "onslaught".
Yes. It was the first time where I felt like I was experiencing live music (or close to it) rather than listening to a playback.
 

fas42

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#23
It's hard to describe in objective terms. The impression I had was that the music lingered in the room instead of dissipating quickly. The music seemed to fill every cubic inch of the room equally well. It was as if the sweet spot was the whole room.
Precisely. Once experienced from a competent system one can never be satisfied with conventional playback - chasing achieving this quality from a variety of setups has been my goal for decades, and has demonstrated that very unlikely combinations of gear can deliver such.
 

watchnerd

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#24
It's hard to describe in objective terms. The impression I had was that the music lingered in the room instead of dissipating quickly. The music seemed to fill every cubic inch of the room equally well. It was as if the sweet spot was the whole room.
Oh, I dunno....everything you've said so far, to me, sounds like it can be explained via standard dispersion, sound power / pressurization, and late reflections / decay measurements.
 

March Audio

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#25
It's hard to describe in objective terms. The impression I had was that the music lingered in the room instead of dissipating quickly. The music seemed to fill every cubic inch of the room equally well. It was as if the sweet spot was the whole room.

As a counterexample, I spent some time listening to Wilson Alexia and it didn't do it for me even when played high volumes. I listened to Revel Salon 2 and that didn't do it either. Speakers that did better include Paradigm H9's and German Physyks Borderland MK IV. These had maybe 80% of the "swimming" quality as the S7.
The acoustics of the room play a significant role in this. Its important to bear in mind its not all down to the electronics.
 

noobie1

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#26
Oh, I dunno....everything you've said so far, to me, sounds like it can be explained via standard dispersion, sound power / pressurization, and late reflections / decay measurements.
I meant it's hard for me to describe in objective terms since I'm new to a lot of those terms.
 

RayDunzl

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#27
I heard a lot of high end setups at the LA Audio show but only a few of the setups gave me the feeling "I'm swimming in the music."
Were the same recordings being played where it was good and where it wasn't?

I'm not sure it's been mentioned in this context, but the recording has a heck of a lot to do with what you will perceive in terms of spatial effects.

It can go from ugly to enveloping here, depending on what's played, nothing else changed.
 

fas42

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#28
I meant it's hard for me to describe in objective terms since I'm new to a lot of those terms.
Yes, a lot has to do with the volume level, within the room - in a vast space, at the same loudness, it won't be as impressive ... but, neither will be a live performer. We have a local shop, concrete ramps going back and forth to feed shoppers to and from their parked cars - the end "cave" of this ramp is a favourite for the local buskers; all just purely acoustic, zero PAs. And the sound carries and carries and carries, the natural echo chamber fattens the sound enormously - put the same player on an open field, and the sound would disappear so fast ...

Interestingly, even the "ugliest" recording will reveal a great degree of spatial detail, and will be "easy to listen to" if the playback system is good enough - in fact, this is how I separate the men from the boys, so to speak ;).
 

DonH56

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#29
Finally got my new Revel speakers set up and they are very nice. Give my old Maggies a run for their money; still have that sense of "space" and yet seem more dynamic esp. at lower volume (as expected). Having floorstanders for surrounds and rears,
 

Blumlein 88

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#30
Finally got my new Revel speakers set up and they are very nice. Give my old Maggies a run for their money; still have that sense of "space" and yet seem more dynamic esp. at lower volume (as expected). Having floorstanders for surrounds and rears,
Sounds good. You probably told us before, but which Revels do you have?
 

DonH56

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#31
Might not have, just got them set up today and still need to dial in a few things.

Salon2 L/R, Voice2 center, F106 surrounds and rears. Retained my quartet of Rythmik F12 subwoofers.

I was pretty nervous they would just not have that immersive, clean sound of my Maggies but so far I am quite impressed.
 

Blumlein 88

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#32
Might not have, just got them set up today and still need to dial in a few things.

Salon2 L/R, Voice2 center, F106 surrounds and rears. Retained my quartet of Rythmik F12 subwoofers.

I was pretty nervous they would just not have that immersive, clean sound of my Maggies but so far I am quite impressed.
I am envious. One of my Soundlab owning friends has the Rhythmik F12 subs. Some of the best subs I have been around. Should work great with the Salons.

My video system is the jr. jr. jr version of yours I guess. Revel F12s up front and LSR305s center and surround. Its not bad at all. Yours should be really nice.
 

noobie1

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#33
I have a pair of P-363 in another room too... bought a new pair for $199.98 delivered off Amazon a couple of years ago. I haven't tried them with the miniDSP yet. I might have to whip them out and see what they'll really do. They are even wider dispersion than the JBL, so...
I listened to Wilson Sabrina's today and it wasn't the experience I was hoping for. I almost think P363 does a better job at creating music immersion experience and possibly more fun to listen. It holds its own on vocals remarkably well. While the Wilson sounded good, I couldn't get into it at all even when I chose the songs.
 

RayDunzl

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#34
I almost think P363 does a better job at creating music immersion experience and possibly more fun to listen.
I set up my P-363 directly in front of my 'stats, and with the light dimmed they were invisible from the midlle of the couch - black against black.

My audio buddy came over for Beer Saturday, I told him "something" had changed, so don't stare too hard, avert your eyes till you sit down, etc.

He didn't guess speakers.

(He has a pair of Martin Logan CLS)
 
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RayDunzl

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#35
Salon2 L/R, Voice2 center, F106 surrounds and rears.
Did the Dealer come up with a deal you couldn't refuse, or did you succumb to a momentary lapse of reason?
 
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Blumlein 88

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#36
I set up my P-363 directly in front of my 'stats, and with the light dimmed they were invisible from the midlle of the couch - black against black.

My audio buddy came over for Beer Saturday, I told him "something" had changed, so don't stare too hard, avert your eyes till you sit down, etc.

He didn't guess speakers.

(He has a pair of Martin Logan CLS)
Is that known as a double beer blinded test protocol? :)
 

RayDunzl

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#37

Cosmik

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#38
It's hard to describe in objective terms. The impression I had was that the music lingered in the room instead of dissipating quickly. The music seemed to fill every cubic inch of the room equally well. It was as if the sweet spot was the whole room.

As a counterexample, I spent some time listening to Wilson Alexia and it didn't do it for me even when played high volumes. I listened to Revel Salon 2 and that didn't do it either. Speakers that did better include Paradigm H9's and German Physyks Borderland MK IV. These had maybe 80% of the "swimming" quality as the S7.
A major difference between the Alexia, Salon 2 and the S7 (as far as I can gather) is that the S7 uses sealed bass...
The advantage of sealed bass is that it is controlled all the way down, and rolls off more slowly than a ported speaker. This means that it actually engages with the room at some level all the way down to 0Hz due to 'room gain', rather than a ported speaker's sudden disappearance below the port resonance frequency. This may be your secret ingredient...
...bass being the foundation of the music and containing most of the ambience of the recording venue, the total experience of reproduced music can only be apprehended when both the foundation and the ambience coexist. When the total ambience of the recording venue is reproduced intact, you receive a musical experience that cannot be described in words. Once you have experienced true deep bass as part of a total sound experience, you can’t go back to anything less. The best way to prove this is to disconnect the subwoofer while listening to well-recorded symphonic music. The soundstage shrinks and the new sound seems a poor imitation of the previous one. And this is true even when there is no bass in the music!
http://www.ellisaudio.com/subwoofers.htm

People make up for the deficiencies of their ported speakers by adding subwoofers, but a suitably-sized speaker with sealed bass in a room doesn't need it.
 
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noobie1

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#40
A major difference between the Alexia, Salon 2 and the S7 (as far as I can gather) is that the S7 uses sealed bass...
The advantage of sealed bass is that it is controlled all the way down, and rolls off more slowly than a ported speaker. This means that it actually engages with the room at some level all the way down to 0Hz due to 'room gain', rather than a ported speaker's sudden disappearance below the port resonance frequency. This may be your secret ingredient...

http://www.ellisaudio.com/subwoofers.htm

People make up for the deficiencies of their ported speakers by adding subwoofers, but a suitably-sized speaker with sealed bass in a room doesn't need it.

The bass on the S7 sounded amazing and I do think that is a major part of the recipe. I believe the S5 and S3 also have sealed bass but not the same woofers. S3 and S5 sounded good but clearly not as good as the S7. When I asked a Magico rep about similarities and differences between the models, he said the Be tweeters were exactly same in all the S series models but other major components were different.
 
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