RexrothPigeon
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wow, surprising! so is there a superior alternative in this form-factor?
On edit: Sonosax seems to be still in the game to me
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(re) Review of Sound Devices MixPre-3 II Multichannel Recorder Review - Advanced mode
- Thread starter Rja4000
- Start date
On edit: Sonosax seems to be still in the game to me
Sonosax shows the recorder as being out of stock since years, but I may be wrong. Superior alternative: that's it exactly. I can imagine that the Nagra has a wonderful sound. That THD would have been a poor value 20 years ago, too. Maybe they know something that is more important? I don't know.
I will try to do a CMRR measurement at some point, but I have to solder a cable for that (drive both of the hot pins of an XLR input with a strong unbalanced signal, and look at what is picked up by the recorder. Someone could also do such a measurement on a nice indoor interface (RME Babyface?). This is an important parameter when you have to be 30m away from the recording location and there are a bunch of 32A lighting cables crossing the microphone cables. Of course this is a rare situation on film shoots nowadays, as most recording is done through wireless means, but today CMRR is still supposed to be very good in field recorders.
jerryfreak
Active Member
first series measured with high distortion for me as well. The zoom F6 in that test was going thru firmware evolutions after amir's disastrous measurement was relayed to zoom. the F8n pro (tests linked earlier)measured a little better but both F3 and F8n pro also had higher distortion that classic single ADC 24-bit interfaces. so perhaps the same limitation there. the M62 i just picked up kicks the butt of all of the 32 bit recorders ive tried and im taking it into the field (well... a cave) this weekend
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jerryfreak
Active Member
my bad on the 8 series having 32-bit, i thought they did not. i looked it up the specsand they have the same 0.005% THD+N preamps. so 833 not state of the art either
jerryfreak
Active Member
i dont need 142 dB or range, and there are numerous devices with less distortion that have a plenty adequate 120dB of range that cost a lot less than SD
Sonosax has production issues due to component issues, they may resume production sometime this year. Nagra mostly do expensive audiophile stuff these days rather than recorders.
At the lower end there is Zoom and Tascam other than that there is Deity not sure who else is still in the market.
jerryfreak
Active Member
deity has yet to bring a recorder with professional preamps to market tho hopefully I have my hands on a PR4 this month (and its not junk). in all the tests i did above the tascam dr100 mk iii outperformed the zoom and SD devices. thats a 2ch 24-bit recorder stacking channels on a multi-channel ADC chip to increse performance. I havent seen any measurements of their new 32 bit "FR-AV" series yet
I would add that older SD recorders didn't have lower distortion either. 142 dB is nice because it means that you don't have to bother with gain settings but your noise floor remains extremely low. On a normal 24-bit recorder, with low gain, preamp noise levels are high, but with high gain you clip.
On the MixPre, one ADC gets the signal at 76dB gain, the other one probably without amplification. With a usual shotgun microphone at film shoots, one would probably set the gain around 40..50dB, and would count on the limiter to catch the occasional peaks. The latter obviously introduces big distortion, the former means the noise floor is not optimal.
In my opinion the best solution would be a 2-preamp 3-ADC architecture with double recording tracks. One track would be a combined high-dynamic-range signal (although you don't need 32 bits for that, see Zaxcom), the other one would be a traditional gain staging scheme. Thus the safety and relatively distortion-free peaks would be recorded along an optimally recorded normal signal.
jerryfreak
Active Member
i get that but its never been an issue. its pretty trivial to record with peaks over -12dB. even -20 dB unattended is fine in most cases. still over 100 dB of dynamic range. its not like the 16 bit recorders of 30 years ago, there is plenty of dynamic range and no need to ride levels. YMMV but for my application 32 bit doesnt add much utility.
what you describe later in your post has existed for decades as well, and commonly implemented by tascam, roland, lectro, etc. using multiple ADCs (well channels on a multiple ADC chip) to have separate paths with a safety track thats usually ~12dB lower
I will be curious of the results with the PR4. What we know of the specs is that the noise is higher, the gain is lower than with the Zoom F8n. There will be a PR8 as well, also interesting. So maybe Sound Devices & co. will be challenged at some point. The origin of the whole 32-bit dual ADC fashion (that I still love) is probably the Zaxcom NeverClip from 2012. But I think noone here did a review of their recorders. What is interesting about them is, the original NeverClip with 137dB dynamic range and today's version with ~140dB both are recorded in 24-bit integer format. Duh: 24*6=144, so a theoretical 142dB plus dithering should fit into that format.
Sure, peaks at -12 or even -20dB are fine nowadays. But I am not sure if that translates to 100dB dynamic range, because at that gain setting the preamp input noise floor is considerably higher than at higher settings. Depends on the microphone and on the recording situation, I guess. On a film set or in a concert hall, as a rule, you cannot count on having a 5dB background noise level
The Tascam, Roland, Lectro etc. solution is not perfect, and 12dB isn't necessarily enough.
jerryfreak
Active Member
i wouldnt go off any of deitys published specs they havent hit them in the past. we literally know nothing until we get our hands on one
jerryfreak
Active Member
it does with a recorder that has close to 120 dB dynamic range with input at consumer levels, which is literally most of them these daysSure, peaks at -12 or even -20dB are fine nowadays. But I am not sure if that translates to 100dB dynamic range, because at that gain setting the preamp input noise floor is considerably higher than at higher settings. Depends on the microphone and on the recording situation, I guess. On a film set or in a concert hall, as a rule, you cannot count on having a 5dB background noise level
The Tascam, Roland, Lectro etc. solution is not perfect, and 12dB isn't necessarily enough.
jerryfreak
Active Member
i did some measurements of the Tascam FR-AV2 and it acts similar to the zoom and SD 32-bit designs in that it has wider dynamic range but relatively high distortion as a compromise. At this point it seems to be a feature not a bug.
Perhaps in time some company with a rigid design philosophy like RME, Benchmark, or Topping can come up with a multiple ADC design that doesnt have this trade off
Perhaps in time some company with a rigid design philosophy like RME, Benchmark, or Topping can come up with a multiple ADC design that doesnt have this trade off
jerryfreak
Active Member
in regard to performance changing abrupty with variations in input level i noticed the same thing when measuring IMD+noise and THD on the tascam FR-AV2. bottom scale is input level in dBu (not dBFS)
jerryfreak
Active Member
got ahold of the Deity PR4
not bad for an all-in one, kinda middle of the pack of the 32-bit units in performance.
im out on the road and dont have all my gear to fully test it, but working with what i have with me, i can definitely tell that similar to the other 32 bit float recorders it has decent dynamic range but not so great distortion numbers. its right there in the mid 80s on SINAD like the others
operationally it has some nice features, its compact and simple and has 5V bias power. on the second input Great features for the price for sure
hopefully eventually somebody cracks the code on stacking multi-adcs cleanly. Based on stated specs i knew this wouldnt be that unit but im a sucker for new toys
for now, well implemented single ADC designs at 24 bit still rule the roost
not bad for an all-in one, kinda middle of the pack of the 32-bit units in performance.
im out on the road and dont have all my gear to fully test it, but working with what i have with me, i can definitely tell that similar to the other 32 bit float recorders it has decent dynamic range but not so great distortion numbers. its right there in the mid 80s on SINAD like the others
operationally it has some nice features, its compact and simple and has 5V bias power. on the second input Great features for the price for sure
hopefully eventually somebody cracks the code on stacking multi-adcs cleanly. Based on stated specs i knew this wouldnt be that unit but im a sucker for new toys
for now, well implemented single ADC designs at 24 bit still rule the roost
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